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Job creators? Tax cuts? Unions? Health care? Social Security? HA!

I would almost love to see if I could get a class action lawsuit filed against my state for trying to get rid of Obama care. Since it is acting in the interest of only a portion of it's population.

I doubt it. Lots of hoops to jump through on that one.

Can't forget the cost that seems to be hidden or ignored: the fact that you and your wife have to be employed by the company at all.

Now now. I thought this thread was about job creation.

This is a cost we all share in higher prices, the cost of the law power to defend against all of these cases. Whether the case pays out or not, there is still a not insubstantial cost to defending it.

Public access to the courts is not free to individuals writ large. Although I'm curious how much you believe your personal expenditures are increased as a result of frivolous lawsuits. I suspect it's a lot less than you think.

Lawyers are great boogeymen. Nobody likes them until they need them.

Doctors pay malpractice insurance to help offset these costs, whether the other side wins the malpractice case or not, they still have to spend to defend. And in the end that costs all of us.

So what's the alternative? No one can sue for malpractice? Caps on damages just encourage moral hazard and only harm legitimate victims.

Trust me here, the playing field is already very much stacked against plaintiffs. I'm writing a motion right now that effectively argues "you have to prove the client committed fraud before we're obligated to give you any evidence on the issue of whether or not we committed fraud." That is on face ridiculous. We will win that argument. The law is on our side.
 
Didn't the states bring a lawsuit against Universal Healthcare because it was unconstitutional. Couldn't a suit against the state alleging that by trying to abolish Universal Healthcare they are infact themselves acting unconstitutional since the constitution states LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Or taking them to court for misappropriation of funds using my tax money for a lawsuit that doesn't represent me?
 
Didn't the states bring a lawsuit against Universal Healthcare because it was unconstitutional. Couldn't a suit against the state alleging that by trying to abolish Universal Healthcare they are infact themselves acting unconstitutional since the constitution states LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Or taking them to court for misappropriation of funds using my tax money for a lawsuit that doesn't represent me?

Taxpayer standing to bring a lawsuit generally isn't a thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_(law)#Taxpayer_standing
 
Then if it is hard to do how many people would have to sign a petition to bring a class action lawsuit?

You could have everyone in the entire state sign a petition. Wouldn't matter for standing purposes if the basis of the lawsuit is "we're taxpayers."

Also, reading that it looks like Muslims in NY bring a lawsuit for those not willing to let them build their mosque. Right?

They wouldn't have to rely on taxpayer standing if they are ones trying to build the mosque. That would fit under the concept of traditional standing because they have an actual injury-in-fact.
 
You could have everyone in the entire state sign a petition. Wouldn't matter for standing purposes if the basis of the lawsuit is "we're taxpayers."



They wouldn't have to rely on taxpayer standing if they are ones trying to build the mosque. That would fit under the concept of traditional standing because they have an actual injury-in-fact.

Thanks for humoring me

Now back to jobs https://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/17/perry-hits-back-at-obama-over-jobs/?hpt=hp_t2
The best part about the article above begins when you start reading the comments. It sounds like Perry has created plenty of low paying, minimal benefit jobs. Good going Perry.
 
So I contacted the CTJ and asked them about this. They are sticking to their guns. They said the discrepancy on the Verizon financials with their report is a combination of deferred taxes and accounting clutter. They explained it all, but most of it was way over my head. Anyway, the bottom line is they say they're correct, and Verizon never actually denied it- Verizon only reiterated that they follow all tax laws, never actually said they paid a dime.

If any of you want to contact them to have it explained to you, their contact info is:
https://www.ctj.org/about/contact_us.php

Citizens for Tax Justice
1616 P Street NW
Suite 200
Washington, DC 20036
Phone: (202)299-1066
Fax: (202) 299-1065
ctj@ctj.org

Since I never joined the new board, you will have to make do with a guest post from Ms. Serpico under the SalmonHobo name. At the urging of Mr. Serpico, I read through this entire thread and while many thoughts came to mind as I was reviewing the various comments about Verizon's financial statements, I must say many have already been iterated by The Pearl. (Props, sir.) I will summarize just a few of my thoughts on the issue as a whole below (and in continuing posts because apparently I have too much to say).

1) Verizon unequivocally did pay taxes. Within their 10-K is a required disclosure regarding the actual cash paid for income taxes. Verizon clearly states that net of refunds, the Company paid $430 million in 2010. They bury this information in footnote 16 rather than as a supplementary item within the cash flow statements as most companies do. Since the information is contained within the financial statements, this isn't wrong, just inconsistent with the practices of most companies. The $705 million federal benefit quoted by the CTJ refers to a net benefit (or refund for us laymen) related to the 2010 year for current taxes. This is offset by $2.9 billion in deferred taxes for that same year. In total, Verizon recorded $2.5 billion in tax expense (mostly deferred taxes net of current taxes) for this year. Contrary to what this may appear to be (that Verizon is simply delaying paying its taxes through a variety of loopholes), the vast majority of the time (and I don't know Verizon's specific details, I just know accounting and US GAAP) this is due to the fact that certain expenses must be charged to the income statement for accounting purposes sometimes YEARS before they are taken for tax purposes. Certain other items, like goodwill for example, are expensed over a 15 year period for tax purposes but are not written off for accounting purposes unless the goodwill is determined to be impaired. So in Verizon's case, $2.5 billion in taxes will be paid over the course of the next few years related to the $12 billion of profits. Anyone claiming otherwise is cherrypicking facts to make a false argument. That said, this is significantly lower than the statutory corporate tax rate of 35%. This is predominantly due to the fact that Verizon allocates a portion of its income for tax purposes to Vodafone who has a noncontrolling interest in the Verizon Wireless business which makes significantly more of Verizon's profit than its wireline business which results in a higher allocation of its profits to Vodaphone. (See point 2). This is not artful tax dodging but rather the result of Verizon's organizational structure. Accounting requires Verizon to include all of the profits of its wireless business as it has the controlling interest but since it does not get to keep all of those profits in reality, Verizon is not required to pay taxes on those profits. I am not an international tax expert, but I would hazard a guess that Vodafone is paying its own taxes on the income allocated to it related to the wireless business.
 
2) This post began with a discussion in support of the Verizon union workers. In the interest of full disclosure, I will acknowledge I am not personally a huge proponent of unions; I think they served their purpose in the early part of the 20th century and mostly, have no place in the 21st century and are responsible for the decline of many American businesses. That said, specific to Verizon, the union that is striking belongs to the wireline business. As I indicated in point 1, the wireless business is responsible for the vast majority of Verizon's profits. Further scrutiny of footnote 14 shows that Verizon's wireline business comprises only $0.8 billion of the Company's $19.5 billion in total operating income. The union is quick to discuss Verizon's total profits in all of its press releases but the union is essentially arguing that they deserve a part of the wireless pie. (Note that wireless employees are not unionized at all). The wireline business has been declining year over year for a long time. Profits have decreased by 75% just since 2008. Verizon's management is simply asking for concessions in order to return that segment to some of its prior profitability. The other key figure thrown around by the CWA is that Verizon is asking for concessions of $20K per employee in pay and benefits. While that may be a true statement (I personally do not know enough about the specifics to dispute that), the vast majority of the $20K is related to fringe benefits. Most people think that companies only pay their salary and forget about the other costs that employers bear related to each employee (cost of vacation and sick time, health benefits, retiree medical benefits, pension payments, 401k matching, etc.) Verizon is not asking that each employee to forfeit $20K in salary, but rather that they forego some of the fringe benefits Verizon has previously provided but has determined that in the current economy, are no longer feasible to provide. The reality is that in this economy, Verizon will lose customers and ultimately reduce is revenues while still operating with the same extensive infrastructure if it raises prices on its cable, internet, and landline business and that even without these fringe benefits, there are thousands of American workers who would gladly line up for those jobs. These two facts indicate that Verizon is just simply responding to the change in economic circumstances and is doing so in a more timely manner than the airline and automotive industries did.
 
3) The other often maligned quote is to claim that Verizon paid $258 million to just a few executives over the past few years. Let's just isolate this to the CEO who earned a mind boggling $18.2 million in 2010. Let's break this down. His salary was approximately $2.1 million. A lot for you and me, but not really outside the realm of reasonableness for the CEO of a multibillion dollar company. He earned stock awards of $11.2 million and short-term comp of $4.0 million. This is where you and I start to go woah, but if you look into the details of this compensation, you'll see that it is ENTIRELY PERFORMANCE-BASED and not on fluffy targets but on the Company meeting certain financial targets and operational goals, as well as, the Company meeting certain stock targets. The value of these awards are linked directly to the stock price and if the CEO is not directing the Company on a path to create additional value or return on investment to its shareholders, the awards can be become worthless. Put this way, if this was Lehman, the entire $15.2 million of compensation for accounting and disclosure purposes would be worth $0 to the CEO. The other key part of this is that the $15.2 million is not cash out of the Company's pocket. This "compensation" can never be taken from the CEO and allocated to employees which is the subtle argument made in presenting this information in press releases to advocate for the union employees. The rest of his compensation ($1.0 million) is comprised of typical perks: use of private plane, life insurance, deferred compensation plan contribution (in lieu of a pension plan payment as most highly compensated individuals are capped by IRS rules too complex to explain from participating in the Company's regular plan), company car, etc. These are pretty standard for fare for most CEOs and are not surprising for a CEO of such a large company. The rest of this compensation to executives can be broken down similarly and makes for a weak argument from the union perspective.

And on that note, my rant is over and will return SalmonHobo's account to its regular user. Thanks for entertaining a few thoughts from an accounting geek.
 
Well Ms Serp knows a lot more about this than me, so I won't try to argue any of her figures. I have emailed the CTJ and asked for clarification. If I get a response, I'll post their defense of their claim.

I will, however, take issue with a couple of things she posted.

This post began with a discussion in support of the Verizon union workers. In the interest of full disclosure, I will acknowledge I am not personally a huge proponent of unions; I think they served their purpose in the early part of the 20th century and mostly, have no place in the 21st century and are responsible for the decline of many American businesses.
This sentiment was obvious reading the post, but let me point out what I find troubling.

The other key figure thrown around by the CWA is that Verizon is asking for concessions of $20K per employee in pay and benefits. While that may be a true statement (I personally do not know enough about the specifics to dispute that), the vast majority of the $20K is related to fringe benefits. Most people think that companies only pay their salary and forget about the other costs that employers bear related to each employee (cost of vacation and sick time, health benefits, retiree medical benefits, pension payments, 401k matching, etc.) Verizon is not asking that each employee to forfeit $20K in salary, but rather that they forego some of the fringe benefits Verizon has previously provided but has determined that in the current economy, are no longer feasible to provide. The reality is that in this economy, Verizon will lose customers and ultimately reduce is revenues while still operating with the same extensive infrastructure if it raises prices on its cable, internet, and landline business and that even without these fringe benefits, there are thousands of American workers who would gladly line up for those jobs. These two facts indicate that Verizon is just simply responding to the change in economic circumstances and is doing so in a more timely manner than the airline and automotive industries did.
The other often maligned quote is to claim that Verizon paid $258 million to just a few executives over the past few years. Let's just isolate this to the CEO who earned a mind boggling $18.2 million in 2010. Let's break this down. His salary was approximately $2.1 million. A lot for you and me, but not really outside the realm of reasonableness for the CEO of a multibillion dollar company. He earned stock awards of $11.2 million and short-term comp of $4.0 million. This is where you and I start to go woah, but if you look into the details of this compensation, you'll see that it is ENTIRELY PERFORMANCE-BASED and not on fluffy targets but on the Company meeting certain financial targets and operational goals, as well as, the Company meeting certain stock targets. The value of these awards are linked directly to the stock price and if the CEO is not directing the Company on a path to create additional value or return on investment to its shareholders, the awards can be become worthless. Put this way, if this was Lehman, the entire $15.2 million of compensation for accounting and disclosure purposes would be worth $0 to the CEO. The other key part of this is that the $15.2 million is not cash out of the Company's pocket. This "compensation" can never be taken from the CEO and allocated to employees which is the subtle argument made in presenting this information in press releases to advocate for the union employees. The rest of his compensation ($1.0 million) is comprised of typical perks: use of private plane, life insurance, deferred compensation plan contribution (in lieu of a pension plan payment as most highly compensated individuals are capped by IRS rules too complex to explain from participating in the Company's regular plan), company car, etc. These are pretty standard for fare for most CEOs and are not surprising for a CEO of such a large company. The rest of this compensation to executives can be broken down similarly and makes for a weak argument from the union perspective.

You seriously justified a 20k reduction in compensation, mostly to medical and retirement benefits, and then also justified paying the top execs hundreds of millions of dollars.

Also, just to be clear about something, Verizon's wireless business is using Verizon backhaul from the landline business. Those two businesses are linked at the hip. So while Verizon's landline business may show a decline on the consumer side, with LTE rolling out all over the place the landline business is still going strong. Maybe not as strong as it was 10 years ago, but still solid. And FIOS is doing good too.

Anyway, my point is it just isn't right to ask all your blue collar employees to take a 20k reduction each, while paying hundreds of millions to the top execs. Especially if your company made 12 billion in profits. If this is the norm, then this country is doomed. Ignored in that response though, was that Verizon also wants to outsource thousands more jobs. You can bet those jobs would already be outsourced if it weren't for the union opposition, so the union definitely still serves a purpose.

While I agree that many Americans would line up for those jobs in this economy even with the 20k reduction, the same can be said about those exec jobs. Plenty of people would be lining up for those exec jobs even if they took a several million reduction.

Hopefully the CTJ responds and clarifies how they came to their conclusion regarding the taxes. That's kind of a major claim to have out there if they aren't totally sure.
 
The GOP's mantra of blackmailing the American public to keep their handouts alive is getting old.

"You better not take away our subsidies or tax cut handouts, or else we'll take away jobs or raise prices!"

Getting old folks, getting old.
 
The GOP's mantra of blackmailing the American public to keep their handouts alive is getting old.

"You better not take away our subsidies or tax cut handouts, or else we'll take away jobs or raise prices!"

Getting old folks, getting old.
Seriously man, the left should be making threats of their own. "You pay your fair share, you hire American workers, or you don't sell your goods in this country."

You don't need lower tax rates or "Indians living in a hut wages" to attract business. You just need a big enough market to sell to to make up for the higher taxes and wages. I am pretty sure if any of these companies were truly faced with this ultimatum, few if any of them would actually close up shop in America. And if they did, someone else would jump at the chance to fill that open spot in the free market.
 
I quite honestly don't understand the blind gifts given to corporations to "create jobs." Why not let the tax cuts inspire and keep them for corporations that create jobs here? You create jobs in Mexico or China, expect your taxes to be increased. This may not be effective enough to change their minds from creating jobs elsewhere, since you can pay pennies for the Chinese to make crap. But why should we be rewarding these jokes for creating jobs elsewhere?

The right wing demands more accountability from teachers, poor people, and policemen. Why not demand more accountability from the private sector? You outsource jobs, bye bye handouts!
 
These threads always crack me up. The left says government needs to step in and tell people what to do, regulate and punish those that don't comply. Just start a thread about drugs, gay marriage, abortion or any other civil issue however and they are all over the government for intruding in people's lives.
 
... I will acknowledge I am not personally a huge proponent of unions; I think they served their purpose in the early part of the 20th century and mostly, have no place in the 21st century and are responsible for the decline of many American businesses.

A badly run union can be a drain on a business. A well-run union is an asset. In addirtion to worker protections, unions provide training, standards, and support for employees. Generally, even your local community college doesn't have the classes you need to become a master plumber or bricklayer. If you hire non-union labor, you'll need to bear the additional expenses of training or accept a drop in quality of work, for many professions.
 
These threads always crack me up. The left says government needs to step in and tell people what to do, regulate and punish those that don't comply. Just start a thread about drugs, gay marriage, abortion or any other civil issue however and they are all over the government for intruding in people's lives.

many on the left don't think of corporations as "people".
 
These threads always crack me up. The left says government needs to step in and tell people what to do, regulate and punish those that don't comply. Just start a thread about drugs, gay marriage, abortion or any other civil issue however and they are all over the government for intruding in people's lives.

So the left is for more government in economic issues and for less government in social issues?

Kinda like how the right is for less government in economic issues (except when it comes to tax cuts and other handouts for big business) and for more government in social issues (why again exactly does the Utah legislature get to control the distribution of liquor?)
 
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