Kanter and Burke have got to go

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Kanter for Ryan Anderson and 2016 Unprotected?

Anderson gets around 8 million a year and produces points and spacing. Draft Gordon to play SF to make up for his rebounding and defensive deficiencies. Allows Favors to focus on being a rim protector/finisher.

 

[da ThRONe]

Kanter for Ryan Anderson and 2016 Unprotected?

Anderson gets around 8 million a year and produces points and spacing. Draft Gordon to play SF to make up for his rebounding and defensive deficiencies. Allows Favors to focus on being a rim protector/finisher.

Hold up who's giving up the 2016 unprotected pick you guys or us. As a Pelicans fan I can tell you that's a no go if we are giving up the pick. Although I like the idea of a Kanter/Davis front court.

 

[Jazz4ever]

Kanter for Ryan Anderson and 2016 Unprotected?

Anderson gets around 8 million a year and produces points and spacing. Draft Gordon to play SF to make up for his rebounding and defensive deficiencies. Allows Favors to focus on being a rim protector/finisher.

Pass, but close.

 

[♪alt13]

Maybe replaceable, but who are you going to replace him with at this point? I guess we could draft a point guard with about the same talent level as Burke, but just to swap around pieces for the sake of swapping doesn't really get us anywhere. I think Burke is a smart kid, and a hard worker. Like you said, he is not going to be top 5, but I would like to get an improvement and not move laterally if we are going to get rid of him.

There should be no loyalty when it comes to improving the team though.

We already did. His name is Raulzinho Neto.

 

[Getting Traded]

So what are we going to get for them? If the bucks give us their pick for kanter, Burke and five, then absolutely they must go. But to replace them with equally valued rookies or lesser value vets is not something I am interested in.

If we are going to keep running the treadmill of drafting guys with potential, I hope we are getting the ones like Jabari or wiggins that have superstar potential.

Kanter, Burke, and the five for Parker or Wiggins? Seems like too much.

 

[GVC]

You know how low Ginobilis Basketball IQ was in his first years with the spurs ? He was attacking the rim like a crazy wild hog going after some good truffle. Pop transformed him into a special teamplayer with some streetball and Euro Skills. Now he is one of the best players at driving with the ball in his hands.

Manu was a top European player before joining the Spurs at age 25. He was the MVP of the Italian League his final two years in Europe, and was also named the Euroleague Finals MVP in 2001. He was 7th in assists in the Euroleague in both 2000/01 and 2001/02. He was already an incredibly polished team player before he arrived in San Antonio.

 

[da ThRONe]

Manu was a top European player before joining the Spurs at age 25. He was the MVP of the Italian League his final two years in Europe, and was also named the Euroleague Finals MVP in 2001. He was 7th in assists in the Euroleague in both 2000/01 and 2001/02. He was already an incredibly polished team player before he arrived in San Antonio.

Yeah I think Pop adjusted to Manu more than Manu adjusted to Pop.

 

[GVC]

I disagree about the effects of coaching. For example it made no sense to play Burke off the ball and allow Hayward to be the primary ball handler. That took two guys strength and turned them into weakness. Hayward is better off ball as a spot up shooter, slasher, and secondary play maker and Burke is better as the primary ball handler. This was just one example of a simple bad coaching decision that lead to bad seasons for both players as they were forced into roles that didn't suit the either.

1. I'm not sure I made a statement about "the effects of coaching". What are you referring to?

2. I don't think your characterization of Burke's and Hayward's roles on the team is accurate. Burke was a rookie who was handed a lot of minutes AND responsibility right away. I went back and watched some opening minutes of a few games from this past season. Both players had the ball in their hands a bunch. The offense was almost always being initiated by Burke.

 

[GVC]

Yeah I think Pop adjusted to Manu more than Manu adjusted to Pop.

It takes time for players to get accustomed to coaches, teammates and a new league. This idea that Manu was a spastic amateur turned pro by the benevolent hand of Pop is ridiculous.

 

[da ThRONe]

1. I'm not sure I made a statement about "the effects of coaching". What are you referring to?

2. I don't think your characterization of Burke's and Hayward's roles on the team is accurate. Burke was a rookie who was handed a lot of minutes AND responsibility right away. I went back and watched some opening minutes of a few games from this past season. Both players had the ball in their hands a bunch. The offense was almost always being initiated by Burke.

Yeah early on Burke did have the ball in his hands and though every game wasn't great statically for Trey the Jazz were winning. Then almost out of no where Gordon role as the primary ball handler escalated and the wins decreased.

 

[Doublea]

1. I'm not sure I made a statement about "the effects of coaching". What are you referring to?

2. I don't think your characterization of Burke's and Hayward's roles on the team is accurate. Burke was a rookie who was handed a lot of minutes AND responsibility right away. I went back and watched some opening minutes of a few games from this past season. Both players had the ball in their hands a bunch. The offense was almost always being initiated by Burke.

"According to NBA.com's SportVU data, the Utah standout touched the ball in the frontcourt 61 times per game, ranking him No. 31 in the Association. LeBron James was the only non-guard above him on the leaderboard, and no other forwards were in the top 40. Not even Kevin Durant (No. 41) or Paul George (43)"

I think Hayward was used a little too much...

 

[GVC]

"According to NBA.com's SportVU data, the Utah standout touched the ball in the frontcourt 61 times per game, ranking him No. 31 in the Association. LeBron James was the only non-guard above him on the leaderboard, and no other forwards were in the top 40. Not even Kevin Durant (No. 41) or Paul George (43)"

I think Hayward was used a little too much...

And? Trey averaged 69.5 frontcourt touches per game playing 4 minutes less than Gordo...

I just watched the first dozen or so possessions from games #59 @ Indiana, #69 @ Memphis and #79 v. Portland. Most of the time, the Jazz are running a motion set, where players and the ball are moving (can't really label anyone the "primary" ball handler here). When the offense is initiated with an iso or pick and roll, Trey and Gordo seemed to share duties pretty evenly. The NBA's tracking data seems to provide some support for this, as Trey averaged 5.2 pull up field goal attempts and 4.8 drives per game, while Gordo averaged 4.4 pull up field goal attempts and 5.4 drives per game.

Hayward is better off ball as a spot up shooter, slasher, and secondary play maker and Burke is better as the primary ball handler.

Gordo shot .409 on drives, and the team scored 6.1 points on his 5.4 drives per game. Trey shot .372 on drives, and the team scored 5.2 points on his 4.8 drives per game. Gordo had an eFG% of .420 on pull ups; Trey had an eFG% of .377 on pull ups. On the other hand, on catch and shoots Gordo had an eFG% of .445 while Trey had an eFG% of .515.

Given the above stats, I really don't think your statement is accurate at all.

 

[da ThRONe]

Gordo shot .409 on drives, and the team scored 6.1 points on his 5.4 drives per game. Trey shot .372 on drives, and the team scored 5.2 points on his 4.8 drives per game. Gordo had an eFG% of .420 on pull ups; Trey had an eFG% of .377 on pull ups. On the other hand, on catch and shoots Gordo had an eFG% of .445 while Trey had an eFG% of .515.

Given the above stats, I really don't think your statement is accurate at all.

There's more to ball handling than shooting. Hayward apg 5.2 tpg 2.8 and Burke 5.7 apg 1.9 tpg. Gordon almost averaged one less assist per game and one more turnover per game. This is also comparing a rookie to a 4th year vet. Just based on that you expected Burke to get better while Gordon could but usually after 4 season what you have in player is just that.

 

[David Ginola 14]

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/?p=16131

 

[Doublea]

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/?p=16131

Nooo not Burks! But if we got Parker...

 

[GVC]

There's more to ball handling than shooting.

Yes, and? Those drive statistics take turnovers into consideration. That is, the Jazz score more as a team when Hayward drives than when Burke drives. Gordo is also more effective when pulling up.

At the same time, Gordo was ineffective spotting up this year. Burke, while mediocre, was better than Hayward.

In other words, your assertions that Burke is better on-ball and Hayward is better off-ball are not supported by the available data. Further, based on usage and possession data, and my own randomly sampled viewing of games, Burke was still given ample opportunity to initiate the offense. You're simply seeing what you want to see.

This is also comparing a rookie to a 4th year vet. Just based on that you expected Burke to get better while Gordon could but usually after 4 season what you have in player is just that.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Burke may prove to be a better facilitator and on-ball option in the future. Gordo did a better job this season. I see no reason to complain about a coach easing a player into a prominent role. If Burke had been killing it on-ball, and Corbin were diminishing his role, perhaps there would be reason to complain. That simply wasn't what happened.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Kanter for Ryan Anderson and 2016 Unprotected?

Anderson gets around 8 million a year and produces points and spacing. Draft Gordon to play SF to make up for his rebounding and defensive deficiencies. Allows Favors to focus on being a rim protector/finisher.

No way New Orleans does that.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

No way New Orleans does that.

You say that, but then look at the trade they did last year.

 

[NUMBERICA]

You say that, but then look at the trade they did last year.

****, good point. What the **** were they thinking? Holy **** that was bad.

 

[da ThRONe]

Yes, and? Those drive statistics take turnovers into consideration. That is, the Jazz score more as a team when Hayward drives than when Burke drives. Gordo is also more effective when pulling up.

At the same time, Gordo was ineffective spotting up this year. Burke, while mediocre, was better than Hayward.

In other words, your assertions that Burke is better on-ball and Hayward is better off-ball are not supported by the available data. Further, based on usage and possession data, and my own randomly sampled viewing of games, Burke was still given ample opportunity to initiate the offense. You're simply seeing what you want to see.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Burke may prove to be a better facilitator and on-ball option in the future. Gordo did a better job this season. I see no reason to complain about a coach easing a player into a prominent role. If Burke had been killing it on-ball, and Corbin were diminishing his role, perhaps there would be reason to complain. That simply wasn't what happened.

So you take one down year from Gordon and say he's not a better spot up shooter and slasher? Especially a year when he has taken on more responsibility as a play maker?

Also you are using drives as your barometer for good ball handler. You just pulled that out of no where. Trey averaged more assist and less turnovers per game. While playing less mins per game. That is a fact. Not me seeing what I want to see. This is you finding some stat that means little to nothing to prove your case.