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Kanter and Nike Hoop Summit History

Take it from someone that knows a thing about being on haunches; you need to seriously chill out.
 
Borat said:
Unfortunately your blind love for Kanter does not allow you to see the historical perspective of the only noteworthy accomplishment Kanter has. And no, I don't count PKM's statement that he did well in a pick game he saw as a serious accomplishment, nor his junior success against pathetic competition. The whole importance of Nike game was that he went against best selected US HS prospects, many of whom historically end up as good NBA players and put up good numbers against them. So, without any bias at all, I wanted to look at all games and see how the guys who have done well against these prospects turned out. So, 15 is no magic number. It's just a basic indicator of whether the guy has done well or not against top HS prospects. We can use any other indicator, but I think you agree if someone could put up 15+, he did well against these top guys. And when I compiled the list of these guys, the fact they have done well in this game mostly didn't translate into so much as 3d stringer in NBA. So, the conclusion is that doing well in this game alone, even though against good competition, is extremely poor indicator of NBA success.

Now, once again to address your point about first round picks projections, all these guys played against Euro or NCAA competition before they were projected in or out of first round. It is because of their other accomplishments at a more senior level that they were ruled out or in of the first round. Kanter doesn't have any of these accomplishment. They only noteworthy thing is this game. That's why you can't say "and a first round projection", you gotta look at all. And I am not trying to make complete statistical analysis here, but I would think people want to know the fact that nearly everyone else who has done well in that game against top HS competition never was good enough to even make it to NBA. This fact is very relevant, when the only meaningful thing you have to look at is this game, don't you agree?
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Okay 1st off, I'm not even in the draft Kanter camp. I hope Williams falls as I'd rather have him.

2nd off the very thing you are accusing me of being is exactly the opposite of what you are actually doing. You hate him so bad you won't even consider another point of view. Your historical stats on his accomplishment are trash. It's just your version of the stats. You picked a random # that fit your argument. And only looked at 1 of the 2 teams playing. 15 IS A MAGIC # to you. You picked that # because it fits your argument. Well use 30 PTS, and use both teams. 15 points is hardly a big game, and Kanter scored double that amount.

I would say scoring 30 points in this game has a very good track record of success in the NBA. 100% actually. Using your own list only Dirk scored 30 and he is a huge success in the NBA.

Again nothing in your post has any basis in fact. It's all just random stats you are trying to twist into some sort of coherent argument to back your hate. Unfortunately you have failed on an epic scale.
 
I've heard Kanter compared to Koufos before. They both participated in the Euroleague U18 championships, and here are their stats:

Kanter: 22.8 pts / 35 min (54.2 FG% [65-120], 50.0 3PT% [2-4])
Koufos: 26.6 pts / 35 min (51.5 FG% [87-169], 0.91 3PT% [2-22])

Kanter: 20.23 reb (6.7 offensive) / 35 min (148 reb/256 min)
Koufos: 13.05 reb (3.3 offensive) / 35 min (104 reb/279 min)

Kanter: 70.0 FT% (35-50) (6.84 FTA/35 min)
Koufos: 59.0 FT% (36-61) (7.65 FTA/35 min)

Kanter: 1.64 assists / 35 min
Koufos: 0.38 assists / 35 min

Kanter: 2.19 blocks / 35 min
Koufos: 3.51 blocks / 35 min

Kanter: 2.05 fouls / 35 min
Koufos: 1.63 fouls / 35 min

Kanter: 0.96 steals / 35 min
Koufos: 1.38 steals / 35 min

It's hard to argue that U18 performance means much, though Kanter rebounded noticeably better than Koufos—doubling his offensive rebounding rate. Koufos also shot a better percentage than Kanter inside the arc (2PT FG%) but has an overall lower FG% because he shot 2-22 from downtown.

Picking Kanter is a risk. We could either win big or get boom bitched. The problem I have with picking Knight is that we'd be picking a guy who'd very likely fall another 2 or 3 spots if we don't pick him. I don't like selecting a guy as high as 3 who the next team wouldn't select. I hope the Jazz select Kanter, and if they like Knight, then have a trade in place.
 
gregbroncs said:
Okay 1st off, I'm not even in the draft Kanter camp. I hope Williams falls as I'd rather have him.

2nd off the very thing you are accusing me of being is exactly the opposite of what you are actually doing. You hate him so bad you won't even consider another point of view. Your historical stats on his accomplishment are trash. It's just your version of the stats. You picked a random # that fit your argument. And only looked at 1 of the 2 teams playing. 15 IS A MAGIC # to you. You picked that # because it fits your argument. Well use 30 PTS, and use both teams. 15 points is hardly a big game, and Kanter scored double that amount.

I would say scoring 30 points in this game has a very good track record of success in the NBA. 100% actually. Using your own list only Dirk scored 30 and he is a huge success in the NBA.

Again nothing in your post has any basis in fact. It's all just random stats you are trying to twist into some sort of coherent argument to back your hate. Unfortunately you have failed on an epic scale.
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Have I not shown to you that doing well against top HS competition (that's the whole point here isn't it - that's the only game where Kanter player against decent competition) in that game alone doesn't nearly translate to NBA success?

Guys like Peja, AK47, Gasol, Rubio, Dirk, Parker, Lopez, etc have all done well at a senior level in Europe at young age. Skita, Lampe, Milicic, Koufos didn't. I have nothing against Kanter personally. If he played a year in Kentucky and did well, I would be the one telling you we need to draft this kid. But the fact is: he didn't. We don't have much more than that Nike game to go on here. So, again tell me, have I not shown to you that doing well against top HS competition (that's the whole point here isn't it - that's the only game where Kanter player against decent competition) in that game alone doesn't nearly translate to NBA success?
 
Borat said:
Have I not shown to you that doing well against top HS competition (that's the whole point here isn't it - that's the only game where Kanter player against decent competition) in that game alone doesn't nearly translate to NBA success?
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No, you haven't. Or, one could just as well say that you have shown that doing EXTREMELY well (30+ pts) against top HS competition DOES translate to NBA success.

And for what it's worth, I'm not a Kanter homer. Yes, maybe I would take him at #3, but I agree that it would be a gamble.
 
Borat said:
I showed you about 15 guys who had good games against top HS guys, and never made it to NBA.
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You showed us 1 guy who had an EXTREMELY good game against top HS guys, who currently is dominating the NBA Finals.

Borat said:
What else do you want?
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Evidence that your 15 pt cutoff has meaning with regards to someone who scored 30+ pts.
 
Borat, I don't think all the Kanter supporters are on his bandwagon as a result of the NHS. I think that is definitely something that we all looked at and were wowed by his numbers. BTW, one of the things that gets lost in the shuffle of that game was the fact that the kid only played 22 min. Anyways, back to my point, I would have to say that the reason that most of us like Kanter is that he looks and feels like a guy that is going to translate. This is why I am very much against Valanciunas. Sure he put up good numbers in Europe, but the guy just does not look like he's going to translate very well when he comes over (I could easily be wrong). I think when people see Kanter they see a 6'11" guy who's got a great body, good work ethic (as evidenced by his combine numbers) looks to be an above average to elite rebounder, has a very solid jumpshot out to 20 ft, and has a decent low post game. Combine all that with the fact that he's 19 and it doesn't seem too far fetched to see him going early in the lottery. Do we know he's going to be great? No. But the only result of him not playing last year is the fact that he is now harder to evaluate.
 
colton said:
You showed us 1 guy who had an EXTREMELY good game against top HS guys, who currently is dominating the NBA Finals.
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And 15 other guys who did well, but failed to make NBA completely.

colton said:
Evidence that your 15 pt cutoff has meaning with regards to someone who scored 30+ pts.
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It has meaning when it comes to the game itself. I showed doing well in the game against top HS guys is meaningless when it comes to NBA success. Look at the stats yourself if you want, pick the guys who you think had good games by your own definition against top HS talent, and you will see that nearly all these guys didn't even make NBA. Doing well against top HS guys in that one game does not translate in success in NBA.
 
Borat said:
And 15 other guys who did well, but failed to make NBA completely.
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If Kanter had scored 15 pts in the game, that would be much more meaningful.


Doing well against top HS guys in that one game does not translate in success in NBA.
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No one is arguing that it automatically does. It's just ONE data point which should be analyzed when evaluating him. But what you seem almost to be arguing is that having success in that game somehow proves that Kanter is going to be a bust.
 
Euro AND U.S. players that scored 20+ in the NHS

Jared Sullinger ('10)
Nilan Macvan ('09)
Donatas Motiejunas ('09)
Avery Bradley ('09)
Xanier Henry ('09)
OJ Mayo ('07)
Nicolas Batum (’07)
Kevin Durant ('06)
Martynas Pocius (‘05)
Lou Williams (’05)
Martell WEbster ('05)
Luda Bogdanovic (’04)
Tony Parker (’00)
Zach Randolph (’00)
Kevin Gaines (’99)
Matthew Neilsen (98)
Larry Hughes (’97)
Vladimir Bogojevic (’96)
Jermaine O’Neal ’96)
Dubrako Zemljic (’95)
 
Euro AND U.S. players that scored 25+ in the NHS

Harrison Barnes..(’10)
Josh Smith..........(’04)
Al Harrington.......(’98)
 
Euro AND U.S. players that scored 30+ in the NHS

Kanter.......................(34 pts ’10)
Wayne Ellignton..........(31 pts ’06)
Psycho T Hansbrough..(31 pts ’05)
Casey Jacobsen...........(31 pts ’99)
Nowitzki.....................(33 pts ’98)
 
Recognizable names that scored below 20 in the NHS:

Jerryd Bayless.............(15 pts. ’07)
Jonny Flynn..................(2 pts. ’07)
Nolan Smith..................(4 pts. ’07)
Kevin Love.................(13 pt. ’07)
Monta Ellis.................(13 pts. ’05)
Al Jefferson................(13 pts ’04)
Rudy Gay...................(14 pts ’04)
JR Smith....................(17 pts ’04)
Andrea Bargnani...........(3 pts. ‘04)
Michael Beasley............(8 pts. ’07)
Derrick Rose................(8 pts. ’07)
Omri Casspi...............(14 pts ’07)
John Wall..................(13 pts 09)
DeMarcus Cousins........(4 pts. ’09)
Serge Ibaka................(8 pts. ’08)
Tyreke Evans............(11 pts. 08)
Jrue Holiday.............(13 pts 08)
Kyrie Irving..............(15 pts 10)
Brandon Knight...........(5 pts ’10)
M. Saer Sene............(15 pts. 9 blocks 6 rebounds in ’06)
Mike Dunleavy............(3 pts ’99)
Joe Johnson...............(4 pts ’99)
Kirk Heinrich..............(7 pts ’99)
Luis Scola................(14 pts ’98)
 
BENTLEY said:
Kanter.......................(34 pts ’10)
Wayne Ellignton..........(31 pts ’06)
Psycho T Hansbrough..(31 pts ’05)
Casey Jacobsen...........(31 pts ’99)
Nowitzki.....................(33 pts ’98)
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I liked Jacobsen. Minnesota, right? I always loved a similar guy, Jeff Sheppard, from UK more. PKM, are you a Sheppard fan like moi?
 
Borat said:
No, you have not succeeded because your never had any meaningful or coherent point to begin with. At least attempt to start exhibiting enough intellectual capabilities to understand the conclusions that are to be made from the data I provided.



This is true, but completely irrelevant. International team is the only one that is playing against good competition. That's the whole point here. This game is the only one where Kanter played against potentially decent competition. The whole idea behind the numbers here is that doing well against potentially decent competition in one game doesn't mean you will go far. NEARLY EVERYONE from that group who had good games against top HS talent didn't qualify to be NBA 3d stringers, even though they did better than many of their counterparts, who later became great NBA players.



Why don't you start thinking a little for a change? How is the fact that good performance against top HS talent not translating anywhere near NBA success absurd? You are just being ridiculous here and ignore a valuable finding. This is not statistical analysis to determine probability of Kanter's success in NBA. But this is a strong indication that doing well against decent competition comprised of top HS talent in that game means nothing at all. It does not even mean you are likely to make NBA roster. Given this is the only meaningful accomplishment Kanter has, I have concerns about risk/reward proposition of him at #3. Really, you don't need to be that thick, it is a basic point that you fail to grasp.

This reminds me of last year, when I was pointing out to you that Haywards accomplishments were significant (leading his team from unranked to ranker as a freshman and to #2 rank as a sophomore while putting up good numbers), and you kept dismissing them, using similar lingo. Now we have similar story, except I am pointing out to you lack of accomplishments, and it looks like your absorptive capacity needs a lot of improvement.
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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but your point appears to be as simple as this:

1. Doing well in the Nike Hoops Summit game is, by itself, not a particularly accurate indicator of future NBA success. This is seen by the large number of anomalies (people who did well in the game but who did not have successful NBA careers) that make extrapolating from this single game to the NBA a risky proposition.

Did I more or less get the main point?
 
jimmy eat jazz said:
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but your point appears to be as simple as this:

1. Doing well in the Nike Hoops Summit game is, by itself, not a particularly accurate indicator of future NBA success. This is seen by the large number of anomalies (people who did well in the game but who did not have successful NBA careers) that make extrapolating from this single game to the NBA a risky proposition.

Did I more or less get the main point?
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Absolutely
 
Borat said:
I showed you about 15 guys who had good games against top HS guys, and never made it to NBA. What else do you want?
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Why is 15 points a good game? It's average at best. What we want is a little perspective. You don't seem to have any.

What I want is a guy with the potential to score 30 points against real competition. Who also happens to have room to grow. Who has the size and body to play his most likely NBA position.

I've said it before in this thread. Kanter has most of the things I would want. The problem is there is not a lot to go on because of his age and that he played in a country most of us are unfamiliar with. If this was the only thing scouts and other's were basing their opinion on it would be a problem. I seriously doubt that it is.

Is Kanter sure to be a better player than Knight or Walker or even Biyombo? No he's not. Is he the safest pick out of that group? Probably not. Hell if the Jazz take Biyombo I would not really be upset. If they take Knight I won't exactly be happy, but will give it time like I did last year with Hayward. I would love to get either Williams or Irving over Kanter. But so would most everybody else and that's why they are unlikely to be there at 3.

The point is Colton is correct. You are acting like having a good game in this game is sure to make him a bust. Almost every one of the other player's you listed were not placed in any mock's drafts as high as Kanter is in every single one of them right now. That is not because of this one game only. But also based on his size, strength, other abilities as well as his play in his former league. You call it a crappy league but that does not mean he could not be evaluated based on his play. He was also extremely young while playing at that time.
 
gregbroncs said:
Why is 15 points a good game? It's average at best.
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Not in this game. But whatever. Use any indicator you want to derive at the population of International guys who you think had good games against top US HS competition. You will get the same result: nearly all of them did not even crack NBA. And no, I am not saying because Kanter did well, he will be a bust. But based on the evidence, I don't think it is wise from risk management perspective to look at this game and use it as a main factor to project someone top 3.
 
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