Kings at Jazz, Jan 27 2014 7pm Game Thread

[JimLes]

I, and I suspect may others, am not mourning the win; I'm frustrated the fact that it was achieved by playing loaner veterans heavy minutes at the expense of what is presumably the future core of the team. I can live with moving out of the high lottery if it's the young core playing together and winning. I'd probably be excited about it in fact and engaged. But this is different; this is in many ways a repeat of the previous two years in which Corbin rode ST loaner veterans to heights of mediocrity, which is where we are heading again this year if things continue to play out like this. Play the core and play them together for better or worse and let the chips fall where they may. Win or lose in this case, I'm rooting like hell for them. THIS, however, is more frustrating than it is exciting. This was supposed to be the season of discovery, but it's turning into the season of veteran induced frustration--for the third year in a row no less.

Ok. So vets played 28% of all minutes available tonight, and the youngsters played the other 72%. How much time do you think the vets should get? Ten percent? Zero percent? Play the core 48 minutes a game like Wilt in the olden days, injuries and fatigue be damned?

28% people. 28% is what JL3, Marvin and Richard took up tonight. Three guys. One of whom is the only backup we have at PG. You're all ****ing irrational and blind with some personal vendetta you have. There's no other explanation for it.

Enes, Gordon, Derrick, Alec, and Jeremy are playing 52% more minutes combined than last year. 52%! Plus, you've got Trey playing 31 minutes a game. And it's "a repeat of the previous two years." Really? Really? You're actually going to argue this? You're actually going to argue that this isn't a tremendous improvement over the past year? It's the same thing? It's repeat? It's veterans playing all the minutes, even though they play so much less than last year?

The "vets" logged in 68% of all available minutes last year. They are logging in 26% of all available minutes this year.

Again, it's one thing to argue that the number should be 20% instead of 26% and Gobert should get more time or Jeremy should play more against smaller lineups, but to talk about how this is all "more frustrating than it is exciting" is ludicrous. It actually borders on insane. There's no reason here, you've all lost your damn minds. That's the only explanation I've got.

 

[Getting Traded]

Sorry, I got confused by so many people being angry. I forgot that the Jazz have a fan base that lives in a bizarro world where a loss is celebrated and a win mourned. Most teams' fans aren't like that.

What's bizarre about wanting to build a championship team?

 

[Revolution 9]

I thought we won?

Those birthers are so delusional.

 

[JimLes]

What's bizarre about wanting to build a championship team?

The fact that you act as if there's a sure-fire way to do it.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Ok. So vets played 28% of all minutes available tonight, and the youngsters played the other 72%. How much time do you think the vets should get? Ten percent? Zero percent? Play the core 48 minutes a game like Wilt in the olden days, injuries and fatigue be damned?

28% people. 28% is what JL3, Marvin and Richard took up tonight. Three guys. One of whom is the only backup we have at PG. You're all ****ing irrational and blind with some personal vendetta you have. There's no other explanation for it.

Enes, Gordon, Derrick, Alec, and Jeremy are playing 52% more minutes combined than last year. 52%! Plus, you've got Trey playing 31 minutes a game. And it's "a repeat of the previous two years." Really? Really? You're actually going to argue this? You're actually going to argue that this isn't a tremendous improvement over the past year? It's the same thing? It's repeat? It's veterans playing all the minutes, even though they play so much less than last year?

The "vets" logged in 68% of all available minutes last year. They are logging in 26% of all available minutes this year.

Again, it's one thing to argue that the number should be 20% instead of 26% and Gobert should get more time or Jeremy should play more against smaller lineups, but to talk about how this is all "more frustrating than it is exciting" is ludicrous. It actually borders on insane. There's no reason here, you've all lost your damn minds. That's the only explanation I've got.

I'll keep it simple. RJ played 23 minutes tonight, Burks played 21. Two things here: (1) RJ should not play more minutes than Burks, (2) Burks should be playing at least 30 minutes per game on average. At this point, there is simply no valid reason in my mind that Burks should be playing only 21 minutes per game and fewer minutes than RJ. Burks has earned more PT, but for some reason Corbin doggedly refuses to give it to him. I can imagine Burks frustrated wondering just what he has to do to earn more PT--I'm wondering the same thing.

Kanter has been playing very well for the most part as of late. He was a highly efficient 6-8 tonight. This combined with his recently promising trend earned him all of 22 minutes. Even more so than Burks, we absolutely have to know what we have with Kanter and whether he can play with Favors and whether he fits in the puzzle. How his is being used simply will not answer these questions.

As I've said many times, IF the objective this year is to see what we have for the future, Corbin is going about it the wrong way in my opinion. You can disagree. That's fine with me.

 

[Jazz4ever]

How were we not a better team last year with all of this talent?

Not sure what you're getting at here. The Jazz have had some quality wins that I don't mind (like against OKC), but this is not one of them. We barely beat a Sac team that purposefully tried to throw the game by benching Gay. We saw the same thing against Orlando when they benched their best player Affalo. These wins offer no insight to the future because they are comparable to a D league team.

 

[Hedda Gambler]

Not sure what you're getting at here. The Jazz have had some quality wins that I don't mind (like against OKC), but this is not one of them. We barely beat a Sac team that purposefully tried to throw the game by benching Gay. We saw the same thing against Orlando when they benched their best player Affalo. These wins offer no insight to the future because they are comparable to a D league team.

So when a bad team has a good player out with injury or illness, their team is benching him to support the tank? Good to know that injuries and sickness do not apply to bad teams.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Not sure what you're getting at here. The Jazz have had some quality wins that I don't mind (like against OKC), but this is not one of them. We barely beat a Sac team that purposefully tried to throw the game by benching Gay. We saw the same thing against Orlando when they benched their best player Affalo. These wins offer no insight to the future because they are comparable to a D league team.

Sacramento is trying to win, which is why they went and got Rudy Gay. It they are tanking, it's not intentional.

 

[JimLes]

I'll keep it simple. RJ played 23 minutes tonight, Burks played 21.

And I'll keep it even simpler. Richard plays SF. Alec plays SG. Apples and oranges.

Burks should be playing at least 30 minutes per game on average

Why? Why is 30 a magical number, except that we use a decimal system? Why would 30 be acceptable, but 29 is a travesty, and you hate the Jazz, and don't want to watch the games, and the whole season is ruined? What rational explanation do you have for picking that number?

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

And I'll keep it even simpler. Richard plays SF. Alec plays SG. Apples and oranges.

Not it is not. Play Burks at SG and Hayward at SF. Problem solved--unless you think Hayward and Burks should never share the floor.

Why? Why is 30 a magical number, except that we use a decimal system? Why would 30 be acceptable, but 29 is a travesty, and you hate the Jazz, and don't want to watch the games, and the whole season is ruined? What rational explanation do you have for picking that number?

30 minutes give or take, it's not a magical number but it is a rough threshold number of what constitutes legit 'starter' minutes in the NBA, plus it helps ensure that Burks is on the floor during crunch time (as opposed to rotation minutes while starters are resting), when the game is on the line, which is invaluable learning experience if we ever want him to make the jump.

Plus, very simple, more "meaningful" minutes=more experience; more experience=quicker ascent up learning curve; quicker ascent up learning curve=quicker Jazz know what they have with Burks and quicker Jazz move back into contention.

This strikes me as an eminently rational explanation.

Oh and by the way, where do you get that I hate the Jazz or don't watch games? I love the Jazz, I've invested all kinds of emotional energy in the team, and I watch every game I can and attend every home game I can (season ticket holder). I don't believe I ever said anything here that could reasonably lead someone to conclude that I hate the team and don't watch them.

 

[JimLes]

Not it is not. Play Burks at SG and Hayward at SF. Problem solved--unless you think Hayward and Burks should never share the floor.

The Jazz have decided that Hayward is a SG. Now, you can argue and scream and pretend you somehow know better than the coaching staff, but it's not about that. That's what they've decided, and they're not going to undermine their own decision by playing Hayward at a position they believe his future does not lie.

30 minutes give or take, it's not a magical number but it is a rough threshold number of what constitutes legit 'starter' minutes in the NBA, plus it helps ensure that Burks is on the floor during crunch time (as opposed to rotation minutes while starters are resting), when the game is on the line, which is invaluable learning experience if we ever want him to make the jump.

Plus, very simple, more "meaningful" minutes=more experience; more experience=quicker ascent up learning curve; quicker ascent up learning curve=quicker Jazz know what they have with Burks and quicker Jazz move back into contention.

This strikes me as an eminently rational explanation.

It would be very rational, except that Burks has been playing 30 minutes a game. Since 2014 started, he's averaging 30 minutes a game. Even if you look at the entire season, he's playing 28. I think that very much falls under your "30 minutes, give or take" category. On the other hand, Richard Jefferson is playing 27 minutes a game for the season, so less than Alec. He's also playing 27 minutes a game in the new year, and again, that's less than Alec. So again, when you say "RJ should not play more minutes than Burks," that condition has been met. I think it's grossly unfair to use a single game as an example, or to claim that your condition is that Alec must play more than Richard in every single game.

As far as who's on the floor in crunch time, if I've read the stats at 82games.com correctly, Burks has an advantage over Jefferson in that category too.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

The Jazz have decided that Hayward is a SG. Now, you can argue and scream and pretend you somehow know better than the coaching staff, but it's not about that. That's what they've decided, and they're not going to undermine their own decision by playing Hayward at a position they believe his future does not lie.



It would be very rational, except that Burks has been playing 30 minutes a game. Since 2014 started, he's averaging 30 minutes a game. Even if you look at the entire season, he's playing 28. I think that very much falls under your "30 minutes, give or take" category. On the other hand, Richard Jefferson is playing 27 minutes a game for the season, so less than Alec. He's also playing 27 minutes a game in the new year, and again, that's less than Alec. So again, when you say "RJ should not play more minutes than Burks," that condition has been met. I think it's grossly unfair to use a single game as an example, or to claim that your condition is that Alec must play more than Richard in every single game.

As far as who's on the floor in crunch time, if I've read the stats at 82games.com correctly, Burks has an advantage over Jefferson in that category too.

The since 2014 stat would be more meaningful if it didn't include several games where Hayward was injured and Corbin was forced to play Burks more. I think it's grossly unfair to use clearly non-representative data points to argue for a general trend.

Burks did get over 30 against Washington, so that's one data point for, but went down again vs. Sacramento, so that's one data point against. I want to see consistency, instead of jerking Burks around from game to game. I also want to see Burks playing with Hayward and Kanter playing with Favors and the entire core playing together. It's imperative that we see whether these combinations can work. So it's not just the minutes played but also how those minutes are distributed and who is on the floor with whom.

We can see how the trend develops and if it trends favorably, then I withdraw my objection. But I see nothing in Corbin's past behavior that makes me optimistic that he's going to change. If he does, and I hope he does, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[DutchJazzer]

And I'll keep it even simpler. Richard plays SF. Alec plays SG. Apples and oranges.



Why? Why is 30 a magical number, except that we use a decimal system? Why would 30 be acceptable, but 29 is a travesty, and you hate the Jazz, and don't want to watch the games, and the whole season is ruined? What rational explanation do you have for picking that number?

there is no difference between sg and sf.
burks and hawayrd couls tart at sg and sf
while hayward and marv backing those up.

 

[Hitman]

The since 2014 stat would be more meaningful if it didn't include several games where Hayward was injured and Corbin was forced to play Burks more. I think it's grossly unfair to use clearly non-representative data points to argue for a general trend.

Okay then - Richard Jefferson's total minutes (and therefore, his mpg) are inflated by the fact he is one of only two Jazz players to appear in every game, and he also has been the beneficiary of extra minutes that would normally go to the missing players - just like Burks, who is the only other player to play in every contest. Jefferson's mpg numbers for January - like Burks' - also rose slightly from his December totals, and this is attributable to the extra minutes available at SF due to Hayward's injury.

In January, Burks averaged 29.4 mpg, Jefferson 26.5 mpg, so Burks has logged 3 minutes/game more than Jefferson this month. If we go back to December, before Hayward's injury, then AB clocked up 27.8 mpg that month while RJ logged 24.5 mpg. The result is the same as January - Burks was logging 3 minutes/game more than Jefferson then, too. That difference wasn't altered by Hayward's injury. I'd say that proves a trend.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Okay then - Richard Jefferson's total minutes (and therefore, his mpg) are inflated by the fact he is one of only two Jazz players to appear in every game, and he also has been the beneficiary of extra minutes that would normally go to the missing players - just like Burks, who is the only other player to play in every contest. Jefferson's mpg numbers for January - like Burks' - also rose slightly from his December totals, and this is attributable to the extra minutes available at SF due to Hayward's injury.

In January, Burks averaged 29.4 mpg, Jefferson 26.5 mpg, so Burks has logged 3 minutes/game more than Jefferson this month. If we go back to December, before Hayward's injury, then AB clocked up 27.8 mpg that month while RJ logged 24.5 mpg. The result is the same as January - Burks was logging 3 minutes/game more than Jefferson then, too. That difference wasn't altered by Hayward's injury. I'd say that proves a trend.

That would seem to be correct. Thanks for the extra info.

Now let's see if we can edge that trend up a bit more and get the Core 5 playing more together when it counts, including Hayward with Burks and Kanter with Favors.

 

[Primetime]

- I hate the minute distribution overall but especilly the minutes of Rudy and JL3
- Love the AST% from our two wings, Treys number could be a little higher and nice to see Derrick with some AST
- Forget to highlight the REB% from Enes. That's bad! Gotta do a better job
- The eFG%s are terrible(besides Enes) but I like that TS% from Derrick
- Don't like that USG% much. Marvin takn dem shots like there is no tomorrow

That ain't no horror film, that's reality. These are the adv. stats for the 3rd quarter. This win feels like it is 70% because of the 3rd quarter play of RJ and Marvin. I don't mind if this team win ball games( I prefer them to lose but still I don't mind it) but it should be a byproduct of development and PT for the core guys(yeah, yeah Derrick, Gordon and Trey played good minutes in the 3rd). This win just don't feel that way but maybe it's just me. Idk.

 

[orangello]

How were we not a better team last year with all of this talent?

This.

Sent from the JazzFanz app

 

[orangello]

I, and I suspect may others, am not mourning the win; I'm frustrated the fact that it was achieved by playing loaner veterans heavy minutes at the expense of what is presumably the future core of the team. I can live with moving out of the high lottery if it's the young core playing together and winning.

This

Sent from the JazzFanz app

 

[orangello]

The Jazz have decided that Hayward is a SG.

Except that Hayward plays almost half his minutes at SF.

Go on, keep trolling.

Sent from the JazzFanz app

 

[jope]

Except that Hayward plays almost half his minutes at SF.

Go on, keep trolling.

Sent from the JazzFanz app

this. 82games.com has hayward at SF about 35% percent of the time on the court,

AND their data shows that this is the most effective lineup for the jazz (by far):
Burke-Burks-Hayward-Williams-Favors (burks at the 2, hayward at the 3)