Chad Feldheimer
Well-Known Member
so did 20 other teams? They are clueless too I guess?
Lets face it our front office is the worst in the NBA
- Thread starter pbash
- Start date
so did 20 other teams? They are clueless too I guess?
Hearsky
Well-Known Member
Seriously dude, every GM whiffs. Every GM missed on Matthews and Millsap. That is just a stupid argument.
twentytwo
Active Member
I will leave it open for comments.
The Jazz have been in the lottery all of 3 times since it's been around. That's a real poor front office for you.
TheMulletMutilator
Member
That's a tough argument. There is no cap in baseball and the Marlins are notorious for being able to scout talent. The genius of Larry Beinfest in baseball is underrated. You also have to include that in MLB in general there are now 50 rounds in which people are drafted not including the compensation rounds which were designed to give teams losing type A and type B free agents a little more compensation for losing a stud free agent. Talent evaluating in the MLB has really picked up in the past few year though with the stat gurus. Anyway, I would rate this organization(Jazz) about average.It's nice to see that their winning percentage is one of the best but disappointing to know that they haven't reached the promise land yet. I would also like to point out that the Florida Marlins have a terrible fan base when it comes to ticket sales. Not so much for the Jazz.
7StraightIsGreat
Well-Known Member
The Bottom line is this: If the Jazz had a bad FO, this team would struggle to win 20 games per year. The Jazz are stuck in one of the smallest markets in all of sports, in a town where your typical NBA upper-tier athelete does not want to spend a career.
In fact, I think it's a miracle that the Jazz aren't the Milwaukee Brewers or Kansas City Royals of the NBA. When you look back at it, it's been amazing how the Jazz were able to transition from the Stockton and Malone years to keep this team a viable competitor.
Seriously, what other NBA franchise could lose 2 of the top 50 players in the same year and stay as viable as Utah has? Hell, even though the Bulls play in one of the biggest markets in the NBA, their FO did a much worse job of transitioning out of the Jordan/Pippen years. One could even argue that they are still going through that transition. How did the Knicks do after Ewing left? They're in the biggest sports market IN THE WORLD and yet their FO can't put together a 40 win team to save their life.
Utah Jazz: Where dumb-***, ungrateful fans happen.
In fact, I think it's a miracle that the Jazz aren't the Milwaukee Brewers or Kansas City Royals of the NBA. When you look back at it, it's been amazing how the Jazz were able to transition from the Stockton and Malone years to keep this team a viable competitor.
Seriously, what other NBA franchise could lose 2 of the top 50 players in the same year and stay as viable as Utah has? Hell, even though the Bulls play in one of the biggest markets in the NBA, their FO did a much worse job of transitioning out of the Jordan/Pippen years. One could even argue that they are still going through that transition. How did the Knicks do after Ewing left? They're in the biggest sports market IN THE WORLD and yet their FO can't put together a 40 win team to save their life.
Utah Jazz: Where dumb-***, ungrateful fans happen.
carolinajazz
Well-Known Member
..post of the year! Excellent points! I'll add one more thing: the Utah Jazz maintained "watchable" basketball for all those years.....when other teams were sinking into a low state of basketball "debauchery!"
anonymous832
Member
First of all, people here need to focus on what is actually being argued - so any arguments about what the Jazz have done over the history of their franchise is moot. STOP MAKING THAT ARGUMENT. That's not what anyone's complaining about - they're complaining about the CURRENT front office. Which for all intents and purposes means Kevin O'Connor, who's been in charge since 2000.
The truth, as is so often the case, is much more reasonable than most people on this board are being. I don't think O'Connor is a particularly good GM; having said that, I still think he's probably slightly above average when all 30 GMs are taken into account, simply because there are a lot of bad GMs out there. (A lot of this has to do with bad owners or other circumstances - a lack of stability, a lack of patience, etc.) The one thing that bugs me most about O'Connor is the way he sweet-talks some fans (and media members) into thinking that he's doing all he can do build a championship team. He CONSTANTLY says that the team did or is "trying REALLY HARD" to make an impact trade, yet he never does - so if we take him at his word, then he's the one general manager in the NBA completely incapable of making a trade, in which case why does he have a job? And if we DON'T take him at his word, then...well, that's worse, isn't it?
I like that the Jazz have had front-office stability and been able to consistently put a winner on the floor, but O'Connor's draft history - particularly in the first round - has been demonstrably bad. The one great pick was Deron, and as someone already said - it would have been REALLY hard to miss on that one with Deron and Paul both on the board. (The trade to move up 3 spots was impressive, I'll give you that - KOC's best move as GM by far.) But other than that, he's struck out again and again and again. Brewer shouldn't even be counted as a "hit" - he never progressed beyond where he was in Year 2, and before his fourth year in the league was over, he was already jettisoned out of town for a lottery-protected first-rounder that, judging by KOC's history, will be parlayed into another mediocre or useless player. (I mean, in 2004 we had three picks in the top 21 and all three were complete failures. Come on!)
His one "big" trade has been trading one one-dimensional wing shooter (Giricek) for another one-dimensional wing shooter (Korver) that happened to have a better attitude and wasn't a complete d**k. You're not building an actual contender with move like that - unless, of course, those moves are supplements to BIG moves, which KOC has repeatedly proven unable to pull, despite his insistence that he's "trying." Any suggestion that the Jazz have one of the very worst front offices is completely asinine, of course - but on the other side, people need to face the fact, based on empirical evidence, that KOC has been more than content to simply remain competitive year-to-year, instead of showing some balls and actually trying to build a real contender.
The truth, as is so often the case, is much more reasonable than most people on this board are being. I don't think O'Connor is a particularly good GM; having said that, I still think he's probably slightly above average when all 30 GMs are taken into account, simply because there are a lot of bad GMs out there. (A lot of this has to do with bad owners or other circumstances - a lack of stability, a lack of patience, etc.) The one thing that bugs me most about O'Connor is the way he sweet-talks some fans (and media members) into thinking that he's doing all he can do build a championship team. He CONSTANTLY says that the team did or is "trying REALLY HARD" to make an impact trade, yet he never does - so if we take him at his word, then he's the one general manager in the NBA completely incapable of making a trade, in which case why does he have a job? And if we DON'T take him at his word, then...well, that's worse, isn't it?
I like that the Jazz have had front-office stability and been able to consistently put a winner on the floor, but O'Connor's draft history - particularly in the first round - has been demonstrably bad. The one great pick was Deron, and as someone already said - it would have been REALLY hard to miss on that one with Deron and Paul both on the board. (The trade to move up 3 spots was impressive, I'll give you that - KOC's best move as GM by far.) But other than that, he's struck out again and again and again. Brewer shouldn't even be counted as a "hit" - he never progressed beyond where he was in Year 2, and before his fourth year in the league was over, he was already jettisoned out of town for a lottery-protected first-rounder that, judging by KOC's history, will be parlayed into another mediocre or useless player. (I mean, in 2004 we had three picks in the top 21 and all three were complete failures. Come on!)
His one "big" trade has been trading one one-dimensional wing shooter (Giricek) for another one-dimensional wing shooter (Korver) that happened to have a better attitude and wasn't a complete d**k. You're not building an actual contender with move like that - unless, of course, those moves are supplements to BIG moves, which KOC has repeatedly proven unable to pull, despite his insistence that he's "trying." Any suggestion that the Jazz have one of the very worst front offices is completely asinine, of course - but on the other side, people need to face the fact, based on empirical evidence, that KOC has been more than content to simply remain competitive year-to-year, instead of showing some balls and actually trying to build a real contender.
Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
Actually, his biggest trade is trading for Deron Williams.
Let me just throw out there that the GM does not have the final say on a trade or who is picked. That would be the guy that is suppling the money. I know through the history of the NBA there have been trades and draft picks that never happened because it was nixed by the owner who ether didn't want to spend the money or liked a different guy better. I have a hard time putting all the blame for some of those picks and lack of trades only on KOC. Sloan hates trades. Miller didn't want to put a team into the LUX tax unless it had a chance at a championship. (meaning getting a guy like gasol like the Lakers did). So with those things against him I am sure KOC hasn't been able to do some of the things he would have liked to.
Of course it could be worse. The Blazers just fired there GM who was considered by most to be one of the best in the league. And Pritchard was the guy that swung Brandon Roy in a trade for Randy Foy. And was able to Get Aldridge in almost the same manner. Even the good GM's have to answer to the owner. And sometimes the owner is just wrong. Firing Pritchard is a perfect example. And I am sure the Millers have had there fair share of stupid mistakes when it comes to basketball also.
Of course it could be worse. The Blazers just fired there GM who was considered by most to be one of the best in the league. And Pritchard was the guy that swung Brandon Roy in a trade for Randy Foy. And was able to Get Aldridge in almost the same manner. Even the good GM's have to answer to the owner. And sometimes the owner is just wrong. Firing Pritchard is a perfect example. And I am sure the Millers have had there fair share of stupid mistakes when it comes to basketball also.
anonymous832
Member
Read the whole post, moron.
I said that move - which wasn't a trade for Deron Williams, mind you, but a trade to move up from No. 6 (along with No. 27) to No. 3 in order to pick Deron - was the best of KOC's entire tenure. (Would you like me to direct you toward the appropriate passage, or do you think you can find it for yourself?) In the succeeding paragraph, CLEARLY I was talking about player trades, as I'd already mentioned (and praised) the D-Will draft-day trade.
But thanks for clearing up something that had already been accurately explained. You've been a real help to this discussion.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
FO has been worse than average at evaluating talent, IMO. Of course, we've only had 4 lottery/near lottery picks since Stock/Malone: Williams, Snyder, Humphries and now Hayward.
Williams was a home run.
Snyder/Humphries were major whiffs. But many "experts" gave the Jazz an A for that draft.
Hayward will probably be a decent rotation player.
I think KOC has done better than average in terms of trades and signing FA's. His hands are tied by the Millers and often forced by Sloan. He brought in Harpring, Okur and Boozer. Got something for Giri after Sloan backed Utah into a corner. He discovered Raja. KOC/Perrin have discovered a lot of decent talent in the 2nd round/undrafted: Millsap, Matthews, Collins.
And don't blame him for letting Mo get away. That was Larry H's fault. It was purely due to the Larry not wanting to pay $3M for a third-string (at the time) undersized combo guard.
Williams was a home run.
Snyder/Humphries were major whiffs. But many "experts" gave the Jazz an A for that draft.
Hayward will probably be a decent rotation player.
I think KOC has done better than average in terms of trades and signing FA's. His hands are tied by the Millers and often forced by Sloan. He brought in Harpring, Okur and Boozer. Got something for Giri after Sloan backed Utah into a corner. He discovered Raja. KOC/Perrin have discovered a lot of decent talent in the 2nd round/undrafted: Millsap, Matthews, Collins.
And don't blame him for letting Mo get away. That was Larry H's fault. It was purely due to the Larry not wanting to pay $3M for a third-string (at the time) undersized combo guard.
You sound like you need a hug. And anger management classes.
I will leave it open for comments.
Don't you have anything to say to back up your claim? Weirdo.
Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
I will leave it open for comments.
I award you bad rep and may god have mercy on your soul. Some people are beyond vacuous.