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Socrates was a fine teacher, especially for children or youngsters. If you are content to let any mode of public indoctrination go unquestioned, the primary value of education is missing. It's the asking of questions that initiates thought.

I agree that modes of teaching that encourage the asking of questions are valuable for all ages. However, when the answer is known, so is supplying the answer is the correct move for young kids. Working out why it is correct, and why some plausible-on-the-surface alternatives are not, is more likely to confuse young kids than help them.
 
Employers have, en masse, resorted to evasion of the expenses ...

I see you are buying into some media hype of your own.

Employers cutting back on hours to reduce benefits occurred well before the ACA. People leaving jobs they don't like anymore, because now they don't have to keep them to keep health insurance, is a boon for the economy, not a drag on it.
 
Any time you include health maintenance in voluntary health insurance, you get into a spiral where those who are healthy are paying to supplement those with chronic conditions. They leave, and the price of insurance increases, and again the most healthy leave, the price increases, etc. You can't gather a large group by marketing to them as individuals. Why buy health insurance to cover things like vaccines, asthma medicine, etc., that you don't use?

Right. Not sure what your point is. Shouldn't those who have more health problems have to pay more for insurance? Your last question is spot on, individuals can decide for themselves what they want and what they don't want.

Much better that it be voluntary in my mind. But now the solution is to force people to supplement insurance for others, even if they don't need it?
 
Any time you include health maintenance in voluntary health insurance, you get into a spiral where those who are healthy are paying to supplement those with chronic conditions. They leave, and the price of insurance increases, and again the most healthy leave, the price increases, etc. You can't gather a large group by marketing to them as individuals. Why buy health insurance to cover things like vaccines, asthma medicine, etc., that you don't use?

It doesn't matter which position you take, the debate is never-ending because they are 'flaws' in every ideology. Every person cannot get exactly what they want, but as a utilitarian, I believe the free market is the way to go because it's best for the greatest amount of people. There will always be people on the bottom, but the nice thing is that a truly free market gives them the best opportunity to move from that position. I'm concerned with protecting the right to pursuit of happiness, not having the government attempt to provide happiness to all.
 
I'm concerned with protecting the right to pursuit of happiness, not having the government attempt to provide happiness to all.

socialism%2Bsocialist%2Bwinston%2Bchurchill%2Bmotivational%2Bposters%2Bwww.motivationalpostersonline.blogspot.jpg
 
Right. Not sure what your point is. Shouldn't those who have more health problems have to pay more for insurance? Your last question is spot on, individuals can decide for themselves what they want and what they don't want.

Even when you stratify the groups of people by health conditions, some people in those groups will be healthier than others, and wind up paying more for their health maintenance insurance to supplement other people. So, they will leave instead.

Much better that it be voluntary in my mind. But now the solution is to force people to supplement insurance for others, even if they don't need it?

I don't like the ACA act much either. It's possibly one of the worst ways to implement universal coverage.
 
It doesn't matter which position you take, the debate is never-ending because they are 'flaws' in every ideology. Every person cannot get exactly what they want, but as a utilitarian, I believe the free market is the way to go because it's best for the greatest amount of people. There will always be people on the bottom, but the nice thing is that a truly free market gives them the best opportunity to move from that position. I'm concerned with protecting the right to pursuit of happiness, not having the government attempt to provide happiness to all.

As a utilitarian, you should only believe in the free market when it works. it doesn't work for health maintenance insurance, and never has.
 
As a utilitarian, you should only believe in the free market when it works. it doesn't work for health maintenance insurance, and never has.

From my point of view, the best form of "health insurance" is plenty of doctors and lots and lots of other people who are trying to do stuff to help out, for a price that reflects virtually infinite "competition" for the patient's dollar.

I don't see where insurance company high rises actually do much to help, but I appreciate the idea of insurance against catastrophic risks. I think the total cost for my wife has reached one million dollars, already, and I appreciate that if she had not gotten the care she did, she would already be dead. . ..

our present crisis has been in the making since the liberal AMA organization was founded by socialist idealists perhaps, but with money from the likes of the Rockefellers, and so the organization has acted as an advocate for cartelism across the board in every way that impacts our health care. We have engineered ourselves into having too few medical schools, too few doctors, and too few everything that has any impact on our choices. . . . and we were still the best place on earth for medical care simply because we had the best economy and people cared to get the best possible care, on their own choice.

I think we had "The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" including the right to choose our own medical care in an somewhat free market. Thej Philippines had more doctors and nurses than the United States, but few people could afford to use them. . . .

Freedom works.

Planned economies don't work as well.
 
My wife told me something I didn't know the other day.

I was sorta shocked almost two years ago to witness her sudden about-face on alternative medicine and herbal remedies and such, when she was diagnosed with cancer. At the time I told her that since I had not seen any valid research on those things, I agreed it would be a gamble, a speculative bet, to rely on those things, whatever the hope or claims might be. I had my concerns, and still have them, about the so-called "mainstream medicine show", as well. So I just shut up and let her decide for herself.

What she didn't tell me then, but told me a few days ago, as we drove by the old health and herbal remedy store, is that she in her capacity as a nurse, cared for the owner of that store, in her end-stage course of cancer. She told how when the lady finally turned herself in to the hospital, she was in extreme pain and beyond any possible help. My wife helped load her up for the ride to the big city hospital, and was sad even the pain killer drugs seemed useless. . . .

Part of the story was how the lady's kids, while they were trying to get their mother into emergency care for stultifying pain, went home to get some stuff for her, including purified water and green drinks and herbal stuff she had been using. Clearly a completely dislocated logic going on with them.

So when it became the known fact with her, a month later, that she had cancer, it was not just a "No, thanks" to those remedies, but a "Hell No."

I cite this as an example of how people making their own choices can be better than any knowitall making them.
 
Another item from that conversation. . . . recently in a follow-up consultation with her oncologist, who is herself a cancer "survivor", the highly-paid and very reputable member of the Huntsman Cancer team, tried to tell my wife to go "vegetarian". My wife told her "Hell No" to that idea, and the professional oncologist blasted back that the reason she got cancer was because she (my wife} eats meat.

I tell ya. Cancer sends even doctors over the edge into insanity sometimes.

I told my wife that it was unprofessional for the oncologist to say something like that, to which my wife replied that the doctor has had a huge case load recently of resurgent cancers in her patients, and is having a hard time coping with it.
 
As a utilitarian, you should only believe in the free market when it works. it doesn't work for health maintenance insurance, and never has.

I was glad, in the eighties to be part of an HMO, with premiums paid by my employer, the University of Utah.

I can't argue with your fact on this item, or on why people choose to leave programs like this, but I do think it is a good idea. For my money, I want a doctor/patient situation where there is some focus on prevention and early discovery and treatment of problems. . . . Ultimately, I have in some large way, just been my own "health maintenance specialist".

I call it the privilege of being both educated and free.
 
My wife told me something I didn't know the other day.

I was sorta shocked almost two years ago to witness her sudden about-face on alternative medicine and herbal remedies and such, when she was diagnosed with cancer. At the time I told her that since I had not seen any valid research on those things, I agreed it would be a gamble, a speculative bet, to rely on those things, whatever the hope or claims might be. I had my concerns, and still have them, about the so-called "mainstream medicine show", as well. So I just shut up and let her decide for herself.

What she didn't tell me then, but told me a few days ago, as we drove by the old health and herbal remedy store, is that she in her capacity as a nurse, cared for the owner of that store, in her end-stage course of cancer. She told how when the lady finally turned herself in to the hospital, she was in extreme pain and beyond any possible help. My wife helped load her up for the ride to the big city hospital, and was sad even the pain killer drugs seemed useless. . . .

Part of the story was how the lady's kids, while they were trying to get their mother into emergency care for stultifying pain, went home to get some stuff for her, including purified water and green drinks and herbal stuff she had been using. Clearly a completely dislocated logic going on with them.

So when it became the known fact with her, a month later, that she had cancer, it was not just a "No, thanks" to those remedies, but a "Hell No."

I cite this as an example of how people making their own choices can be better than any knowitall making them.

Babe I know this is not exactly long the lines you were getting at, but I thought of this immediately after reading this.

I wanted desperately to believe that alternative treatments could cure my cancer. I had some friends into a calcium kick (yet another MLM) at the time, and they foisted calcium packets on me, professing that all I needed was to up my calcium intake, change the PH of my body chemistry, and the cancer couldn't survive in my body any longer and would naturally die off, while my teeth and bones got a lot healthier. They had PH test strips and everything you used to make sure you were getting the right amount of calcium. I thought at first they were just kooky.

Then I had my first chemo treatment. I was 28 years old, was relatively large (6'2"-ish, 290 lbs at the time of my diagnosis), and was in great health despite carrying the extra weight. And my cancer was especially aggressive, and in a very dangerous place, so I got hit hard. I had adriamycin (they call it the red devil, as it is a bright red IV push. Can also be infused but not normally unless the cancer is seriously aggressive, so for my adjuvant rounds I had it infused) and cisplatin (a platinum-based chemo agent), which have both been around for some time. The side-effects for those 2 are among the worst for chemo drugs. And since I was young and big and healthy, as mentioned, I got very aggressive dosages. I would end up with more than my life-time limit of adriamycin, as it causes heart damage that can lead directly to congestive heart failure, so they would do an ECG, then give more of the drug, then another ECG, until they detected heart damage, then got one more dose then they stopped.

But the first treatment was something else. I had cisplatin infused over 3 days, and 2 adriamycin "pushes". I felt like I had been hit by a truck. They permanently "burned" my vein closed where it was administered. Cisplatin can mess with nerves, especially visual and hearing perception. I felt like I was in a tunnel and everything sounded like it was coming out of a tin can, like I was always on the verge of passing out. I have permanent hearing loss of certain frequencies as a result. But during and after that first treatment, I felt worse than I had every imagined it was possible to feel. Everything hurt, even my hair and just touching my skin anywhere was enough to elicit a yelp. The nausea was staggering. Nothing they gave me could touch it and I ended up back in the hospital due to bleeding ulcers. My sense of taste was destroyed. I couldn't sleep. Constant pain and discomfort. Near-constant vomiting. It was ungodly and far beyond anything I had expected. I never in my life before that wanted to die until then, and more than once I prayed for it. I am not trying to be melodramatic, it is simply what the experience was like for me.

After that first treatment I had 3 weeks off until the next. My friends (I mentioned before), invited us over for dinner. They had researched all the newest natural remedies, and had some new ones to recommend, including laetrile, which is a big alternative "natural" remedy (it is, in essence, a poison, as it can be converted into cyanide in the body), as was high-dose beta-carotene, and a handful of others. And at first, before I ever had my first treatment, I had thought they were wacko. But after that first experience, I was willing to listen to anything and everything. Anything that would free me from such an experience again, as I knew I had at least 5 rounds of neoadjuvant chemo, followed by likely the same or more adjuvant treatments. I was so excited to hear about laetrile, and I started immediately taking the calcium supplements. I even discussed seriously with my wife stopping chemo until we could see what these other treatments could do, or not do.

I ended up skipping the alternative stuff, swallowing the bitter pill, so to speak, and then going through 2 surgeries, 11 rounds of chemo total, 1 NDE as a result of the chemo, and proton therapy at Loma Linda University Medical Center (to which I almost exclusively attribute my survival). Now, nearly 15 years post-treatment, I am glad I went the traditional route, as I believe the rest is pure quackery, and I shudder to think what may have been the outcome had I shunned it just because chemo sucked beyond all imagination.

But I completely understand the choice, and the impetus behind that choice. You can be pushed beyond what you think you can endure, and it can, and does, change you. Under those circumstances, I believe, you cannot really make a coherent rational choice, since escaping the pain kicks in survival instincts and overwhelms logic. I'm glad my wife and parents were thinking more clearly than I was and helped me make what I see now was the right choice.
 
I don't think I can fully relate the things that have gone down here on my home front. I am amazed and grateful that my wife is still with us, and doing much better than I ever thought possible.

It sounds to me like Log is also an outlier on the statistical charts, just to be still with us.

The transforming thing in our experience with cancer came as the result of a stranger who saw my wife in the Cedar City public park and "noticed her hat". She is probably no longer alive, but what she told my wife made all the difference for us.

She said she had fought the cancer fight, and lost, and had only a few months left. She said she had grieved leaving her young family behind, until God answered her. . . . "They're my kids,too." As I take it, it was an empathetic statement from the perspective of a parent who knows what it's like to leave some kids behind. I think it also embraces the notion that in God's eyes, sometimes it's just time for a kid to come home.

The woman's story changed everything for us, and set in motion some events that will be remembered well beyond our lives here. . . .

But that is a story I can't even begin to relate here. . . .
 
I don't think I can fully relate the things that have gone down here on my home front. I am amazed and grateful that my wife is still with us, and doing much better than I ever thought possible.

It sounds to me like Log is also an outlier on the statistical charts, just to be still with us.

The transforming thing in our experience with cancer came as the result of a stranger who saw my wife in the Cedar City public park and "noticed her hat". She is probably no longer alive, but what she told my wife made all the difference for us.

She said she had fought the cancer fight, and lost, and had only a few months left. She said she had grieved leaving her young family behind, until God answered her. . . . "They're my kids,too." As I take it, it was an empathetic statement from the perspective of a parent who knows what it's like to leave some kids behind. I think it also embraces the notion that in God's eyes, sometimes it's just time for a kid to come home.

The woman's story changed everything for us, and set in motion some events that will be remembered well beyond our lives here. . . .

But that is a story I can't even begin to relate here. . . .

Thanks for sharing. I consider myself lucky, incredibly lucky, really, since my Dad had cancer a few years ago and beat it. It was too soon for him to go and I'm glad he won the fight.
 
@Log

I'm a perfect storm of contradictions. . . . .

I got a bad taste about pharmaceuticals back in the days when I aspired to become a medicinal chemist and even helped in some minor ways with the coming forth of some of our anti-cancer "chemo" agents in use today, like 5-Fluorouracil. Yep, I washed the flasks that stuff was invented in. In the process of time, falling asleep with the Merck Index under my chin, I woke up realizing that every chemical known to man has been tried as an anti-cancer agent, and all have worked somehow. . . . .

Because the underlying logic of trying to poison cancer cells, and relying on their higher metabolism needs to trick the cancer into hogging the poison, does form a logical basis for action. . . . and any poison will work. . . . .

The so-called "natural remedies" are hyped as having "no toxins" and "no poisons", a sort of nonsense. . . . because every chemical substance will at some level constitute a poison just as well. . . . even water has an LD50 level where half of the subjects so treated will die. . . .

The quips of the lab where I worked included the maxim "Even water will kill you", and "What we want is a magic bullet".

Proton therapy to my mind is the best sort of treatment. As I understand it, it will "cook" the tissue where multiple beams cross paths, and leave a minimal amount of damage in the tissue areas where single beams pass.

I remain principally impressed, however, with our own immune systems and our own "repair" capacities, as being the systems which will ultimately solve the problems of treating cancers of all kinds. This is what a lot of homeopathic rhetoric hypes, but without an intelligent basis. . . .
 
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