A river having no name seems like one of the saddest things. But living in the desert, I appreciate dry washes, and have seen some flash floods come and go. I have heard some rumors about the Arabs viewing washes as rivers, realizing basically that there is usually some water beneath the sand. . . . .
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NAOS
Well-Known Member
well, standard thermodynamics has as been largely abandoned (except for its ossified existence in classrooms). The active edge of research, as far as I understand it, is using non-equilibrium thermodynamics... a very different beast. One more step toward kicking Plato out of science.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
If you follow the radical materialists from Spinoza down, you'd find that the 'process of thought' has gone way beyond what's happening in the skull. I'm not sure whom you're referring to with the label "strict materialist," but I think even most of this crowd has become much less brain-centric.
And, surely you know Spinoza, right? Your ideas overlap with his in significant ways.
As far as planning goes, the mechanisms of evolution pretty much destroy any notion of planning........... that is, unless you believe planning is the grandest of all things summed together, and then seat that notion within a mostly unknowable God...... In other words, it's literally the largest possible or most spiritualized definition of planning imaginable. A far cry from the planning I did about my breakfast.
I'm actually aware of Joseph Smith's philosophy on these matters, and I find his musings to be far more insightful than anything you're likely to hear in an Evangelical Church. Still, you're right: I harbor different notions; since I don't start with the presumption of a God, I find no use-value for this blown-out rendering of "planning."
NAOS
Well-Known Member
I'd say it pretty differently, probably, but.... yeah... sort of. I wouldn't stick too firmly to the notion of 'order', since things are under constant variation -- including memory, which is implied by what you say about accumulation (but even things under variation can be said to be ordered...just don't want to get confused about this word.... I hate when discussions die on the unproductive dichotomy between order and disorder). But, yes, memories are discrete things that have accumulations and relations to the here & now or lurk like dormant seeds waiting for the right conditions.
I'm not sure how much any of this counts as "possession" or "property"... but, yeah, I'd say we live our own truths because we undergo our own sensations.
nah... now we're getting a bit too logical and systematic. These dramas necessitate a discussion about the unconscious. Perhaps another time...
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♪alt13
Well-Known Member
Leonard Susskind (if I am understanding him correctly) thinks our Universe is very much like the Allegory of the Cave. Basically we are a projection on the walls of a black hole. (I could be way off, but from the little I have heard about his disagreement with Stephen Hawking that's the gist of it)
NAOS
Well-Known Member
Death does remove us from our friends and family in some senses, but not all. The memories of my grandfather, for example, have a determining hand in the contours of my present. Memories are fabulous and complex. I think the great philosophers of memory are right when they speak about them as living.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
♪alt13
Well-Known Member
Still though, I'd rather be a living person than a living memory.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
I'm highly resistant to any allegorical reduction of things, but that can be fun. I'll look into it.
♪alt13
Well-Known Member
I am unqualified to agree or disagree with it, but I do find it to be fascinating.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
I love how ONE LOBE is swinging through here and 'liking' almost every single post except for mine. I feel bad for the rest of you that you can't say the same thing.
@salt13: I've found some reading material. I'll leave them here has open tabs on my browser and hope it doesn't crash before I get to it. I see that the allegory of the cave is a Plato thing, but I'm trying to to cringe before I read.
@salt13: I've found some reading material. I'll leave them here has open tabs on my browser and hope it doesn't crash before I get to it. I see that the allegory of the cave is a Plato thing, but I'm trying to to cringe before I read.
Doesn't Rush Limbaugh brag about being able to pontificate with one lobe tied behind his back?
I find that most folks, myself not excepted, are only using a small fraction of their available brains as it is. congruently, folks who are studying Artificial Intelligence have analyzed what happens when they take down their computer program one piece at a time, The report is that the first withdrawals from perfection result in incredible inappropriateness and mind-boggling stupidity. But as the process is continued down to about ten percent of the "perfect brain", it begins to function normally again, finally being forced to focus on the relevant facts. . . . Which may be why we only use ten percent ourselves.
One Love has a lengthy history in this forum, under I believe several names at different times. He's young by my view of things, and has cast about looking for answers quite a bit. I believe he just wants to focus on the basics of Christianity. I don't follow the issues others have with one another very well. At my age I choose to just value people pretty much as they are. I hope you can overlook one another's problems to some extent and just focus on the ideas we're playing with.
I appreciate everyone. . . anyone. . . who will come here with any polite communication.
Well, I'd rather get a rep, if deserved, than a "like". I don't know why management chose to devalue rep with all this fiat "like" paper.
NAOS
Well-Known Member
Will someone please send Dr. Jones in with a vial of rep?
disciples? rep is valued because it used to be a sort of currency in this site that could be bartered, exchanged, and played with as a sideshow game. But sometimes it meant something like an affirmation. neg rep was usually just a meaningless ignorant jab, but rep meant someone else was actually thinking something, and it was like an assist in Basketball. It helped to focus on better stuff, maybe make a point or two.
So since I hold individualism up pretty high, and expect the best from people, to be my "disciple" you've got to challenge me enough I actually have to think again, or some more. I can't be the end of the discussion.
So here's a little life story I've been musing about quite a bit lately, on account of someone who's sitting in jail for being an idiot. I know, I know. . . . our legal system has not saved us as a society from all the idiots, and maybe has even been taken over by that tribe. . . .
You don't go to jail for being an idiot. It's for not being the right kind of idiot.
well, maybe "idiot" is a harsh term.
Here's the story, as only I would tell it. No one else would see it this way, for sure.
The "man" was, after a lot of history, a person of immense self-esteem, some very credible marketable skills, making big bucks in his trade. Loved those big trucks, ya know. When you ride around in those, some girls look. I don't know what's going on with Dr. Jones, but I'd skip the monster truck and tell my investors I'm the kind of developer who doesn't waste time and money on cheesy trucks. After seeing what a truck did to my friend, that is. . . .
So a gal set her sights on him, and made her plan. Not so bad looking, and a nice church girl to boot. She made sure he saw her everywhere he went. Oh, yah, she was a mess. She'd been injured falling in WalMart, and WalMart settled by agreeing to pay all her medical expenses for life, whether related to the fall or not. She'd been raped at BYU, and had gone through two hubbies each one an abuser, and all. But she was a good girl.
And, oh, Yah. He had more self-esteem than his truck could haul. Did I mention that? So he got reeled in with lots of neediness, lots of praise, and a bunch of kids who desperately wanted a good dad.
The woman was known, let's say it delicately, as a hypochondriac or a drama queen at the local hospital. Not known especially for anything better than the daytime soaps, and some folks tried to talk the Big Man outta marrying her, to no avail, because of course, this overdone self-esteem syndrome makes people impervious to advice. And when the advisers have the disease, too, no way is it going to be followed.
Good marriage. Lasted about five years, produced two additional children. But as one adopted daughter moved into teenhood, Mama wasn't happy with the BigMan's advice, and began a covert, at first, rebellion. No way would her daughter hafta skimp on makeup. No way.
So, the mistake BigMan made was leaning into and encouraging a sort of mentality centered on his self-esteem. His manner of raising kids was to draw them in, praise them, and direct them overmuch. So Mama's rebellion was like the irrestitible force hitting the immovable object.
Not to mention the fact that the kids had been through all this before with disposable dads, and the real manipulator of everything had always really been Mama. But BigMan thought he could argue and prevail, boss and win, and threatened divorce if not obeyed. Huge mistake.
Mama panicked. Pulled out all the stops, made every necessary allegation, and called the cops. Oh, and did I say it was a well-planned move? For weeks she had with her kids' help, set a trap. Set him up? Well, who knows. One should wonder in a case like this, which is a replay of another earlier divorce proceeding, sans some of the mistakes she made before.
When I talk to the BigMan, he seems to pin his hopes on his adopted son switching sides and recanting allegations. So what is a boy, if he has lived a life being the manipulatible object of an adult, living to please and be praised by someone. Won't his whole life be a series of life stages where thing learned is, most of all, not to look inside, and comply. . . . and not to question one's own self, not to challenge authority, not to be truthful, not to have self-sufficient esteem. . . .. always needy, always looking for who should be pleased first, who he should obey first.
So BigMan and BigMama made a train wreck of a boy.
Somehow, I don't think this is what Jesus would do. So, bros. Sorry, no discipleships offered in this course. The whole course is to address the Universe with your own mind, and please share what you see or think. Best presented with some reason, and I hope with some human decency as well.
Egg!!!!!!!
You don't go to jail for being an idiot. It's for not being the right kind of idiot.
well, maybe "idiot" is a harsh term.
Here's the story, as only I would tell it. No one else would see it this way, for sure.
The "man" was, after a lot of history, a person of immense self-esteem, some very credible marketable skills, making big bucks in his trade. Loved those big trucks, ya know. When you ride around in those, some girls look. I don't know what's going on with Dr. Jones, but I'd skip the monster truck and tell my investors I'm the kind of developer who doesn't waste time and money on cheesy trucks. After seeing what a truck did to my friend, that is. . . .
So a gal set her sights on him, and made her plan. Not so bad looking, and a nice church girl to boot. She made sure he saw her everywhere he went. Oh, yah, she was a mess. She'd been injured falling in WalMart, and WalMart settled by agreeing to pay all her medical expenses for life, whether related to the fall or not. She'd been raped at BYU, and had gone through two hubbies each one an abuser, and all. But she was a good girl.
And, oh, Yah. He had more self-esteem than his truck could haul. Did I mention that? So he got reeled in with lots of neediness, lots of praise, and a bunch of kids who desperately wanted a good dad.
The woman was known, let's say it delicately, as a hypochondriac or a drama queen at the local hospital. Not known especially for anything better than the daytime soaps, and some folks tried to talk the Big Man outta marrying her, to no avail, because of course, this overdone self-esteem syndrome makes people impervious to advice. And when the advisers have the disease, too, no way is it going to be followed.
Good marriage. Lasted about five years, produced two additional children. But as one adopted daughter moved into teenhood, Mama wasn't happy with the BigMan's advice, and began a covert, at first, rebellion. No way would her daughter hafta skimp on makeup. No way.
So, the mistake BigMan made was leaning into and encouraging a sort of mentality centered on his self-esteem. His manner of raising kids was to draw them in, praise them, and direct them overmuch. So Mama's rebellion was like the irrestitible force hitting the immovable object.
Not to mention the fact that the kids had been through all this before with disposable dads, and the real manipulator of everything had always really been Mama. But BigMan thought he could argue and prevail, boss and win, and threatened divorce if not obeyed. Huge mistake.
Mama panicked. Pulled out all the stops, made every necessary allegation, and called the cops. Oh, and did I say it was a well-planned move? For weeks she had with her kids' help, set a trap. Set him up? Well, who knows. One should wonder in a case like this, which is a replay of another earlier divorce proceeding, sans some of the mistakes she made before.
When I talk to the BigMan, he seems to pin his hopes on his adopted son switching sides and recanting allegations. So what is a boy, if he has lived a life being the manipulatible object of an adult, living to please and be praised by someone. Won't his whole life be a series of life stages where thing learned is, most of all, not to look inside, and comply. . . . and not to question one's own self, not to challenge authority, not to be truthful, not to have self-sufficient esteem. . . .. always needy, always looking for who should be pleased first, who he should obey first.
So BigMan and BigMama made a train wreck of a boy.
Somehow, I don't think this is what Jesus would do. So, bros. Sorry, no discipleships offered in this course. The whole course is to address the Universe with your own mind, and please share what you see or think. Best presented with some reason, and I hope with some human decency as well.
Egg!!!!!!!
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♪alt13
Well-Known Member
Have you really never read The Republic? It seems like something you would have read.
Also I don't get quote notifications. I think it has to do with having the note in my username(worth it) so the likes help remind my forgetful *** what I was doing. Keep up the good work Kink.
I read "The Republic" when I was about 16, but I thought it was Aristotle who did that whole cave and candle show.
♪alt13
Well-Known Member
Socrates(pretty sure), but all we really have of Socrates' philosophy is what Plato 'recorded' of it. So naturally Socrates' philosophy lines up quite nicely with Plato's.
I also read it when I was 16. My English teacher took it upon himself to teach philosophy/classics instead of grammar. Good teacher, imo. I also read Dante's Inferno in his class.