Memo's First Game in Europa

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Hmm. How you quantify or qualify "above average"? Remember, there are two sides of the floor. And about 90 feet of wood in-between as well.

You got me.

 

[InGameStrategy]

if they hadn't extended Okur he would have become an unrestricted free agent. i realize you think he is horrible, but he certainly would have gotten offers from other teams (like Haywood did, for about $35 million more).

Good for Memo. He's a good guy. I wish I were Memo--more than I wish that I were almost any other player on the Jazz. He has a hot wife, a cute kid, an awesome yellow Lotus car, and the adulation of the entire Ottoman Empire. But let another team (over)pay for him.

. . . and the Jazz were far over the salary cap with or without Okur.

So really, Okur didn't cost $10 million per year, but rather $10 million times the luxury tax multiple. Thank you for doubling (literally) the weight of my argument.

there wasn't going to be anyone else to "sign" if Okur was gone.

I hardly think that there would have been absolutely nobody. Brad Miller--even longer in the tooth than the Turk--was available in 2010, and signed with the Rockets for less than half as much as Okur, and he still put up 13.5 and 8 per 36 (eerily similar to Okur's numbers in 2008-09) and logged a similar +/-. Furthermore, the existing backups could've logged 5 or 10 minutes each more, at similar impact as Okur, even when not accounting for injury.

this is a serious question: did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, Koufos can't play? has he shown anything since escaping the clutches of our former coach?

Yes, that did occur to me, but Koufos was showing otherwise before Sloan randomly shut him down, despite his work ethic, likely implying to KoKo (at least subconsciously) that effort didn't matter, and that performance didn't even matter, because Sloan was going to favor the vets, even if when the vets were sucking it up.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, a slower, lower-producing Okur wasn't worth $10 million per, especially when MO was taking away crucial development time (at minimal net productivity advantage) from the youngins?

did you know that Fesenko went down with a serious injury at the Eurobasket tournament? i might have missed it, in another thread maybe, where you congratulated KOC for not giving Fesenko a multiyear deal right before an injury (like he did to Okur)... you did congratulate him, right?

I don't recall congratulating KOC for not giving Fesenko a multi-year deal; I would be among the last to do so. And Fesenko did have gastric issues repeatedly last season, and Favors/Kanter/Jefferson is a better combo at the 5, assuming that AJ bothers to play defense. (In other words, Fesenko's chance injury in Eurobasket is even more irrelevant than Memo's chance injury after he signed the contract extension. In both cases, it wouldn't have affected my decision.)

In 2009, I didn't think the the Jazz should re-sign Memo because he wasn't a cornerstone, he was a bad complement to Boozer, he was only a so-so complement to Millsap, and he was slowing down. And that was before his Achilles went ape****.

 

[billyshelby]

Memo playing is only good. He's got lots of rust to shake off. No way is he anywhere near NBA shape. But he can help us a lot next year. His best days are behind him, but big guys who can shoot and have clutch in their DNA are always useful.

 

[r_u_s_t_b_u_c_k_e_t]

So really, Okur didn't cost $10 million per year, but rather $10 million times the luxury tax multiple. Thank you for doubling (literally) the weight of my argument.

i said "cap", not "tax". they could exceed the cap to extend Memo. they had no cap space to sign anyone else. so the options were: extend Okur or risk losing him and going with Koufos/Fesenko instead.

 

[InGameStrategy]

i said "cap", not "tax". they could exceed the cap to extend Memo. they had no cap space to sign anyone else. so the options were: extend Okur or risk losing him and going with Koufos/Fesenko instead.

In 2009, the options were: extend Okur, or wisely wait a year when you have more information. Or realize that he's started declining and already wasn't a key cog, so let him go. And going with Koufos, Fesenko, and whoever else they sign with the massive monetary savings. (Did they use their MLE that year?)

Congratulations on responding to one of my five responses. You were right; you might have not doubled my argument.

 

[Lakers_Slapper]

In the first quarter, Memo looked fat and slow. His defense was atrocious (misplayed PnR's twice, and got beat off the dribble really bad by another big man).

Soooo your saying nothing's changed?????

 

[Lakers_Slapper]

yes, you're a communist, but do you have to be so dammed negative? come on, the Jazz looked pretty good circa 2009. they just kept running into the wrong team in the playoffs.

If your excuse is that, "you kept running into the wrong team in the playoffs", than maybe,just maybe.the team didnt look as good after all,as you thought they did!"Circa 2009".Dont make excuses for them. Carlos Boozer and Deron Williams and the 2009 Utah Jazz could've beat the Lakers in 2009 but they just didnt do anything to allow them that privlege.
I have never heard of NBA Greats like: Malone, Stockton, Magic, I. Thomas, J. Dumars, K-G, Pierce, R. Allen, Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Chamberlain, J. Erving, D. Thompson, Abdul-Jabbar, Ewing, Olajuwon, The Admiral, Moses Malone, J. Sloan (Playing days or Coaching days) etc etc etc etc.... Use the excuse (Whether they won or lost),say, "Well we could've had a shot at the Ring in the finals, but we just kept running into the wrong team!" In 1998 there were a lot of things that Stockton, Malone, Sloan, Hornacek and other Jazz players could have said and used as Excuses! But they didnt! That is the difference between true Legends and todays rise-suddenley stars. The champions of then discussed their teams strengths and weaknesses, And more importantly, Praised the opposing team for their efforts in a well played game. Today its all about what somebody else did, to hold you back from recieving the outcome that you wanted. It's never your fault! Point the finger in who ever's face is closest. BUT NEVER, NEVER! Point it in the face that you see standing in the mirror.
have, but didnt.

 

[Lakers_Slapper]

But at the time Okur's contract ended, Matthews had played a year in the league, and that's when the Jazz should've considered extending Okur, instead of the year before, for precisely these reasons: to have more data on how Okur was doing (he regressed in his last year of the first contract after the extension was already sign) and to see who was out there who would be more valuable (i.e., a Matthews with huge upside for the equally anemic wing spot rather than a declining Okur).

Koufos was coming along OK until about February when Sloan, without any reason whatsoever, demoted his modest minutes to mere scraps. Koufos lost development, and Sloan made no effort to find time for him. While it was disappointing that KK didn't really recover until after he was traded, the effort on finding development minutes for him (even when the existing rotation was sucking wind or when the outcome of the game was not in question) was virtually nonexistent.

For Koufos, any weak argument that he wasn't putting forth effort in practice is moot, because he was a diligent worker. But like with Fesenko, the coaching staff made no attempt whatsoever to grant him more than about 5 minutes per available game (after you average in the multiple DNPs especially in the second half of the season), and that's not enough time for a player--diligent or not--to develop, especially if he's a big man. This is a trend that was repeated several times in the Sloan era and is a core reason why Sloan should have been let go gracefully a long time ago--and is also a core reason why Utah wasn't a legitimate contender since Stockton-to-Malone: the supporting cast wasn't sufficiently developed.

The scanty minutes for Fesenko are symptomatic of the same coaching fallacy that was committed with Koufos. The key difference here is that--on average--Fesenko had more positive impact than KK, but his off-court work ethic gave Sloan an excuse not to play him (even though on-court performance is what matters, and even though the existing big-man rotation not named Millsap was piss-poor on D, warranting the scrubs to come in for a few minutes at a time anyway just to enforce performance among the regular rotation, including Okur).

An analysis of the rest of the team is not necessary to come to the valid conclusion that re-signing Okur was not worth it; analyzing the alternatives (Matthews, when Okur's contract was actually over) and the replacements (developing a half-way decent defensive center was a better complement to Boozer and Millsap than Okur was anyway) merely supported the no-go decision. In 2009, Okur was already slowing down, making his defense even more so-so than it was, and thus an analysis of Okur's potential should have been all that was necessary. The rest is only gravy.

It's not much of a consolation that it was a bad contract for only two years rather than longer. And the notion that beating your head against the wall for two hours feels better than for longer isn't much consolation, either.

"But like with Fesenko, the coaching staff made no attempt whatsoever to grant him more than about 5 minutes per available game (after you average in the multiple DNPs especially in the second half of the season), and that's not enough time for a player--diligent or not--to develop, especially if he's a big man. This is a trend that was repeated several times in the Sloan era and is a core reason why Sloan should have been let go gracefully a long time ago."

"A trend with a lack of effort, by Sloan, with developing". (Or by what you are saying, NOT DEVELOPING Big Men.) Do you happen to be talking about Ostertag who was absolutely horrible at playing offense or defense, but happened to play his best defensive years (mainly 97-99) while being directed under Coach Sloan? Or maybe you are talking about Karl Malone's overall improvement right after Jerry Sloan took over Frank Layden's position?.........Karl Malone is considered a Big Man, right?

Or as you were originally saying, Sloan should have given Kosta Kofous more minutes so he would improve and develop like Jarron Collins? Maybe Sloan learned from the Jarron Collins experiment and didnt want to put the Jazz though several *plus*, more! miserable years with a center that couldnt dribble the ball one time without screwing something up. You really want to argue the greatness of Kofous over being played 5, or 10 minutes a game? Yea, ok, give him more that 5 minutes, hes a dynamic center in the NBA. Screw Coach Sloan! He was way wrong!!!! But YOU, YOU ARE SO RIGHT!

 

[InGameStrategy]

"But like with Fesenko, the coaching staff made no attempt whatsoever to grant him more than about 5 minutes per available game (after you average in the multiple DNPs especially in the second half of the season), and that's not enough time for a player--diligent or not--to develop, especially if he's a big man. This is a trend that was repeated several times in the Sloan era and is a core reason why Sloan should have been let go gracefully a long time ago."

"A trend with a lack of effort, by Sloan, with developing". (Or by what you are saying, NOT DEVELOPING Big Men.) Do you happen to be talking about Ostertag who was absolutely horrible at playing offense or defense, but happened to play his best defensive years (mainly 97-99) while being directed under Coach Sloan?

I am sooooo glad that you brought up Greg Ostertag, because he is Exhibit A as to why Fesenko and Koufos needed more than 5 MPG to develop (as if this were actually controversial): Ostertag--despite being undermotivated, like Fesenko--got more minutes in his first season than Fesenko did in his first three seasons. Fesenko's performance was in the neighborhood of Ostertag's.

Or maybe you are talking about Karl Malone's overall improvement right after Jerry Sloan took over Frank Layden's position?.........Karl Malone is considered a Big Man, right?

Karl Malone was already self motivated, and although Sloan uniquely helped Malone, that example is not particularly relevant to Fesenko and Ostertag, who were both second-rounders and who started with Sloan from the beginning.

Or as you were originally saying, Sloan should have given Kosta Kofous more minutes so he would improve and develop like Jarron Collins?

Jarron Collins got twice as much rookie minutes than Ostertag, so thank you again for bringing up Jarron to prove my point. Key difference is that Fesenko has more physical gifts than both 'Tag and Tree (Collins), and Koufos probably has a better jump shot. But Sloan only gave them scraps, even when the existing rotation was sucking.

Maybe Sloan learned from the Jarron Collins experiment and didnt want to put the Jazz though several *plus*, more! miserable years with a center that couldnt dribble the ball one time without screwing something up.

With the dire need for big men (on the Jazz and elsewhere), it was foolish for Sloan to not invest more court time in developing these players. This could have been done without sacrificing wins, and chances are the existing rotation would've played better, too, if the scrubs were used to send a message to CB and MO that (all of) their minutes weren't guaranteed.

You really want to argue the greatness of Kofous over being played 5, or 10 minutes a game?

Yes, I do, because once you give a player 10 MPG on a regular basis, then that player can start develop. This applies not only to centers but also to other positions. This applies not only to basketball but to other sports also.

 

[r_u_s_t_b_u_c_k_e_t]

If your excuse is that, "you kept running into the wrong team in the playoffs", than maybe,just maybe.the team didnt look as good after all,as you thought they did!"Circa 2009".Dont make excuses for them.

i was only half serious there. nevertheless, isn't it clear those/these Lakers were/are some kind of bad matchup for the Jazz (and everyone else)?

 

[r_u_s_t_b_u_c_k_e_t]

Congratulations on responding to one of my five responses.

no sense beating a dead horse to death.

 

[//r00t 4 Jazz]

Oh My, I forgot how much Memo hate and his contract extension hate there is. IMO opinion the only valid statement is the Jazz could've decided to let another team pay him 10+mil per year as there was no way around him getting at least that with at least that many years.
The rest is revisionist history, no don't extend Memo, yes should've somehow locked up Mathews earlier (somehow) or signed him for more years (because every undrafted player is always good) and then oh no wait don't extend AK early. Go back further (why wasn't KOC the first to call Bell or Korver example) and there is loads of examples of loads and loads of people complaining the Jazz did the opposite of what they should've.

 

[GVC]

Oh My, I forgot how much Memo hate and his contract extension hate there is. IMO opinion the only valid statement is the Jazz could've decided to let another team pay him 10+mil per year as there was no way around him getting at least that with at least that many years.

The Jazz could have waited a year to re-sign Memo. There is plenty of room to disagree with what the Jazz did.

And, contrary to what you posted, Memo would not have signed for as much as he did with the Jazz (IMO) because of his achilles injury. Obviously, in this case, hindsight is 20/20, but still, I and several others would have preferred the Jazz to wait. Unless Memo comes back and plays like an $11mil player this year, we were right.

Fortunately, the Jazz are in great shape cap-wise moving forward, but they'd be even better off had they held onto Wes. Oh well.

 

[obihal]

İf memo didnt sign then everythin would change. Maybe he would not injured

 

[My2Cents]

Wow you are prolific, or just as bored with the offseason as I am.

Good for Memo. He's a good guy. I wish I were Memo--more than I wish that I were almost any other player on the Jazz. He has a hot wife, a cute kid, an awesome yellow Lotus car, and the adulation of the entire Ottoman Empire. But let another team (over)pay for him.

I agree with all of this, and am more than a little jealous, except the last sentence. Look, you either like Memo at $10 million or you don’t. I don’t have a problem with the extension, you, and some others, do. That’s fine, it’s just opinion. I think it was proactive and solidified the center position, you think we should have waited and would have been just as good with Fesenko and Koufos if Okur had left.

So really, Okur didn't cost $10 million per year, but rather $10 million times the luxury tax multiple. Thank you for doubling (literally) the weight of my argument.

I think he said cap, not luxury tax. There’s a difference. Although you could make a case that Okur’s contract contributed to our luxury tax issues.

I hardly think that there would have been absolutely nobody. Brad Miller--even longer in the tooth than the Turk--was available in 2010, and signed with the Rockets for less than half as much as Okur, and he still put up 13.5 and 8 per 36 (eerily similar to Okur's numbers in 2008-09) and logged a similar +/-. Furthermore, the existing backups could've logged 5 or 10 minutes each more, at similar impact as Okur, even when not accounting for injury.

Then who would you have signed? We didn’t have the cap space for Brad Miller even if you could have convinced him to choose Utah over Houston. And the existing backup was Koufos or Fesenko.

Yes, that did occur to me, but Koufos was showing otherwise before Sloan randomly shut him down, despite his work ethic, likely implying to KoKo (at least subconsciously) that effort didn't matter, and that performance didn't even matter, because Sloan was going to favor the vets, even if when the vets were sucking it up.

I don’t know the answer to this. It comes back to the larger issue of player development. I don’t spend as much time around the team as you do so I can’t really comment on how our player development differs from what other teams do. I do know that some players seem to develop just fine in Utah and others don’t. I also don’t think there are many players who leave Utah and suddenly get better. Since the constant is the Jazz system I tend to put more blame on the players work ethic, but I know there are other factors involved.

I wanted Koufos to succeed, but don’t think he will ever amount to much in the NBA. I don’t blame Sloan for this because Koufos could only manage 9 minutes a game in Minnesota and Denver. He could be a Kris Humphries type of late bloomer though so maybe the jury is still out. In any case, Sloan’s main job was to win games and make the playoffs which in turn generates revenue for the team. I think he could have done a little better job finding minutes for young players but he wasn’t perfect, and I don’t think many coaches will jeopardize a win to get developing players’ consistent time on the court unless they are contributing to wins or the games are meaningless.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, a slower, lower-producing Okur wasn't worth $10 million per, especially when MO was taking away crucial development time (at minimal net productivity advantage) from the youngins?

Maybe he’s not worth $10 million, but big guys are generally overpaid and he was coming off one of his best, if not his best, years. I guess you could assume he was inevitably going to slow down but I know the Jazz have a pretty sophisticated system for predicting player decline. They obviously felt he was worth a 2 year extension so I’m going to trust their judgment. I do think there would have been a significant difference in productivity between Okur and Koufos/Fesenko.

In 2009, I didn't think the the Jazz should re-sign Memo because he wasn't a cornerstone, he was a bad complement to Boozer, he was only a so-so complement to Millsap, and he was slowing down. And that was before his Achilles went ape****.

I respect your opinion, I just don’t agree. I do agree he is not a cornerstone but don’t think we had a better alternative. He didn’t compliment Boozer but that was irrelevant to the extension since Boozer was on his way out of town.

I am sooooo glad that you brought up Greg Ostertag, because he is Exhibit A as to why Fesenko and Koufos needed more than 5 MPG to develop (as if this were actually controversial): Ostertag--despite being undermotivated, like Fesenko--got more minutes in his first season than Fesenko did in his first three seasons. Fesenko's performance was in the neighborhood of Ostertag's.

Completely different circumstances, and Ostertag sucked his entire career. Hard to make the case that he improved substantially due to the minutes he got early in his career. He was a career 4.5 point 5.5 rebound guy. I had much higher hopes than that for Fesenko. I also think Fesenko might have seen more minutes if had been available to play on a more consistent basis. It has to be tough for a coach to constantly adjust rotations in order to find 10 minutes a game for a player who is there one night and gone the next due to gastric distress or whatever.

Karl Malone was already self motivated, and although Sloan uniquely helped Malone, that example is not particularly relevant to Fesenko and Ostertag, who were both second-rounders and who started with Sloan from the beginning.

I think all great players are self motivated. Malone’s offseason regimens were legendary, so are Kobe’s. That’s why I think it’s on the players to work hard in practice and during the offseason to make themselves better. You like to blame Sloan if a player fails, but if a player at this level has to rely on a coach for motivation then IMO he is a lost cause. And not to nitpick, but Ostertag was a first round pick.

Yes, I do, because once you give a player 10 MPG on a regular basis, then that player can start develop. This applies not only to centers but also to other positions. This applies not only to basketball but to other sports also.

Playing time is important, but I know from personal experience that player development is more a product of practice than game experience. You gain confidence in your ability in games and I think you have to reward hard work with minutes, but games are not a time to work on technique, or learn where you are supposed to be, or what you are supposed to be doing, or for conditioning. Those are things you work on off the court or field to make you more effective in games. I’m not saying playing time isn’t important, but I think in terms of player improvement, especially early in your career, what you do off the court is more important than 5-10 minutes per game. Especially when many of those minutes come in garbage time. You don’t start to develop when you are given 10 minutes a game. You start to develop by working your *** off in practice. Just my opinion.

 

[r_u_s_t_b_u_c_k_e_t]

And, contrary to what you posted, Memo would not have signed for as much as he did with the Jazz (IMO) because of his achilles injury. Obviously, in this case, hindsight is 20/20, but still, I and several others would have preferred the Jazz to wait. Unless Memo comes back and plays like an $11mil player this year, we were right.

technically this is correct. the extension turned out to be a mistake because of the injury. does that mean no extensions, or any deal longer than absolutely necessary, should be done? i'm pretty sure we can think of some commitments KOC made that turned out great. KOC gave Millsap a 2-year guaranteed deal, when he could have just offered a make-good contract since he was a second round pick. that commitment paid off big time for the Jazz.

 

[GVC]

technically this is correct. the extension turned out to be a mistake because of the injury. does that mean no extensions, or any deal longer than absolutely necessary, should be done? i'm pretty sure we can think of some commitments KOC made that turned out great. KOC gave Millsap a 2-year guaranteed deal, when he could have just offered a make-good contract since he was a second round pick. that commitment paid off big time for the Jazz.

To the bold: Of course it doesn't mean that. I just don't (and didn't at the time) think, given where the Jazz and Okur were and were headed, that Okur's extension was the right move.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

Has Okur ever been a top 10 center?

In intramural floor hockey perhaps.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

Wasn't he an All-Star Center? Does that not qualify being top 10? Or did 10 other centers also make the All-Star game that year and I missed it.

He made the all-star game. Two years before he signed his contract. I'm not supplying the notion that his skills quickly declined over that time. Just stating facts in case you were insinuating that he deserved his contract because he was an all-star that year. Because he wasn't.

And your assertion that his all-star nod makes him top 10 at his position is laughable. I think the Jamaal Magloire post pretty much solidifies that. Let's say he was a top 10 center for ****s and gigs though, say at 8th or 9th, so what? That doesn't change the fact that the extension was a year early and that he was wildly flawed where championship caliber teams can't be flawed (unless you have Kobe and Shaq) which is with his help defense.

 

[Ellipse]

When dealing with a guy that was never the answer and was never going to be the answer? And a lot can happen in a year. And none of this erases that the Jazz didn't have to extend him at that time. That did nothing but limit their options.

And that's it in a nutshell. The Jazz were a flawed team with the Boozer-Okur combo and they were going to be a flawed team with a Millsap-Okur combo. It really doesn't matter if Okur was a top-ten center, because he wasn't the center that the Jazz needed. It doesn't matter that the Jazz couldn't find a better center on the market; if you can't find the player you need, then use cheap fill-ins (Koufus and Fesenko) until a better option comes along. It is a huge mistake for an NBA franchise to commit a 7-figure salary to a player that it knows isn't going to help them reach the finals.

In a way, signing Okur was far worse than signing AK, because with Okur we knew exactly what we were getting ... and he wasn't ever going be what we needed. And yes, signing Okur meant closing the door on other options, such as Matthews. And that is where KOC really screwed up -- he closed the door on other options without improving the team in the process.