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Mo on Marvin

Hey guys,

PM me if you want to know THE TRUTH about Burks' psyche and potential. I've had unfettered access and can tell you all about the comparisons with CJ and other chuckers.





Alex Burks has all the potential to become, for the members of jazzfanz, the most hated jazz player.
 
Foye won't start. But I'd bet my butler on Foye being inserted into the starting lineup by December. And I love my butler.
 
cctrackstar said:
Ok, I'd start a poll if I didn't think it would annoy people, but the question is still there;

Who is the better player, Hayward or Marvin?

I understand that we won't know until he plays a lot of games for the Jazz, but just based on what we have now which is better?

https://www.nba.com/playerfile/gordon_hayward/career_stats.html
https://www.nba.com/playerfile/marvin_williams/career_stats.html
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I'd probably say Marvin...right now. After 7 years, he's settled into a decent, if not spectacular player. Hayward has been up and down. He's had great second halves in both years, but terrible starts. You would expect Gordon still has some upside. Marvin is probably close to the player he'll always be. Perhaps more production if you give him more opportunities. Maybe even a little bit more effort if he's re-energized by his new surroundings. He's at least shown he can be a solid defender and a decent shooter. Not a star, but Marvin could be a very good SF for us.

On the other hand, you can see the raw skills Hayward possesses. If he can ever harness his game, find a consistent shot and play more under control, Gordon CAN be an all-star. Let's hope that starts to happen this season.
 
Hayward's better, but I'm basing that on potential and the fact I haven't seen enough of Marvin. The irony though is the complaints of Hawks fans about Marvin are pretty similar to the complaints of Hayward -- talented, but passive, and woefully inconsistent. The only difference is Hawks fans jokes about Marvin's klutziness. They called him "duck butt" because he's always on the floor after falling down for no clear reason. And since his numbers over many, many minutes don't reflect what you'd expect of such a high draft pick, I'm curious to find out what they know (or don't).
 
billyshelby said:
Hayward's better, but I'm basing that on potential and the fact I haven't seen enough of Marvin. The irony though is the complaints of Hawks fans about Marvin are pretty similar to the complaints of Hayward -- talented, but passive, and woefully inconsistent. The only difference is Hawks fans jokes about Marvin's klutziness. They called him "duck butt" because he's always on the floor after falling down for no clear reason. And since his numbers over many, many minutes don't reflect what you'd expect of such a high draft pick, I'm curious to find out what they know (or don't).
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I know we all have biased opinions because of his draft position. We compare him to other guys who were Top-5.
If we could set that aside and just look at it from what we gave up (Harris) to set his relative value...I wonder how much our opinions would change.
 
MoTown16 said:
I know we all have biased opinions because of his draft position. We compare him to other guys who were Top-5.
If we could set that aside and just look at it from what we gave up (Harris) to set his relative value...I wonder how much our opinions would change.
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Too rational. Find a new board.
 
MoTown16 said:
I know we all have biased opinions because of his draft position. We compare him to other guys who were Top-5.
If we could set that aside and just look at it from what we gave up (Harris) to set his relative value...I wonder how much our opinions would change.
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The optimism about Marvin is directly related to his draft position. I'm not saying anything that isn't true. Any time you get a guy who was drafted 2, and is only 25, you start talking yourself into why he's going to suddenly blossom. Maybe he will, most likely he won't. And Hawks fans, who watched him play 30 minutes a night for 7 years, have pretty strong opinions of his game.

As far as the trade, you make it sound like a steal. The reality is Mo Will is not much of an upgrade from Devin (if he is at all), and we're on the hook for Marvin for 2 years at a dollar figure that presently exceeds his value. I hope Marvin flourishes here and it works out. But it could just as easily go the other way where we're 'stuck' with Marvin and we would have been better off carrying Harris.
 
billyshelby said:
As far as the trade, you make it sound like a steal. The reality is Mo Will is not much of an upgrade from Devin (if he is at all), and we're on the hook for Marvin for 2 years at a dollar figure that presently exceeds his value. I hope Marvin flourishes here and it works out. But it could just as easily go the other way where we're 'stuck' with Marvin and we would have been better off carrying Harris.
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Actually, I look at this as Mo is - at worst - equal to Devin Harris. And probably an upgrade just based on style of play. If he can give us consistent outside shooting, then Mo >>> Harris.

Marvin Williams >>>> Howard or CJ or Carroll. Better shooting, better defense.

Yep, Jazz increased their payroll. But not a big deal given that it is still under the luxury tax, IINM, and there are no worries for next season with either Jefferson or Millsap or both coming off the books. Marvin at $8M is above his value, but not by a huge amount.
 
MoTown16 said:
Actually, I look at this as Mo is - at worst - equal to Devin Harris. And probably an upgrade just based on style of play. If he can give us consistent outside shooting, then Mo >>> Harris.

Marvin Williams >>>> Howard or CJ or Carroll. Better shooting, better defense.

Yep, Jazz increased their payroll. But not a big deal given that it is still under the luxury tax, IINM, and there are no worries for next season with either Jefferson or Millsap or both coming off the books. Marvin at $8M is above his value, but not by a huge amount.
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The question you're not asking yourself is what the cost would have been to get a comparable player to Marvin. The Jazz paid the extra freight precisely because of hope he could be better than he has been (right back to the draft). The risk is he won't. I'm not sure whether the risk was worth it, but I don't chalk Marvin's guaranteed contract next season as "no worries." 8 million dollars is a lot of cap space.
 
billyshelby said:
The question you're not asking yourself is what the cost would have been to get a comparable player to Marvin. The Jazz paid the extra freight precisely because of hope he could be better than he has been (right back to the draft). The risk is he won't. I'm not sure whether the risk was worth it, but I don't chalk Marvin's guaranteed contract next season as "no worries." 8 million dollars is a lot of cap space.
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Billy I think you are over valuing cap space. We aren't going to get a top tier FA. Most of the Space you are talking about is going to end up going to our own FA's and the the next year that contract comes off the books. And i'll play along on the cost of a comparable player part. Who? I don't see a FA out there nor can think of one this summer that fits what you are talking about. Who were we getting at half the mid level (other half went to Foye) or the vet min that brings even half of what Marvin brings?
 
GVC said:
The last time the Jazz had significant cap space, they signed two soon-to-be all-stars.
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Who at the time were not top tier FA's. There is a possibility that the Jazz sign someone with potential, But with the new CBA that well be harder than it was back then.
 
Ben10 said:
Who at the time were not top tier FA's. There is a possibility that the Jazz sign someone with potential, But with the new CBA that well be harder than it was back then.
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That is the Jazz' stated model...to look for guys who still have upside. It's different with shorter-term deals for vets, but long-term commitments are going to be made to guys in their 20's. Top-tier FA's are generally overpaid. You're basing their current deal on what they did over the last several years. And most will start to decline. Now if you can get a player like Deron or CP3, of course you give out a contract...they're still young. But Utah is never going to go after the Joe Johnson's of the league.

Utah will NEVER be a top destination like LA or New York. We're not going to have a trio of stars decide to bring their talents to Great Salt Lake Beach. KOC did a heck of a job bringing in Memo, Boozer and moving up to get Deron to play alongside AK. It was a nice run. But the model we're now seeing is exactly how Utah needs to proceed. We have to hope Favors, Hayward and hopefully Kanter and Burks form a nice core. KOC spent an asset to get Mo. He parlayed Harris into Marvin. Now we have four assets to consider using this year and next summer: the expirings of Al and Paul and two first-round picks. Outside of Favors, I think you consider any move which might make the team better.
 
Marvin Williams to me reminds me of a poor man's Lamar Odom (in Odom's prime). Not a go to guy... but very long... plays D... and has some range. Like that he apparently has improved his ball handling skills too. The lineup I am most excited about is Mo, Hayward, Marvin, Favors, and Jefferson. A lot of size there plus three guys that have range. Kind of gives the same affect of the big lineup (Millsap, Jefferson, Favors) except Marvin is more of a natural 3 than Mansap. Plus really likd the defensive combo of Favors, Marvin, Mo, and Hayward.
 
^^^
Good observation, ky. We're just not used to having natural 3's. J. Howard doesn't count as he was one step away from the senior center last year. Brewer, CJ and Korver were all combo players. AK was a 4 in a SF's body. Hayward right now is a G/SF, but I suspect he may end up as primarily a 3, especially as he continues to add some bulk. Out of our new guys, I'm probably the most excited about Marvin. I see him as being almost as talented as Harpring on offense, but way better on defense. And SF was our area of greatest need.
 
Not sure what to expect of Marvin, honestly. Trying to enter this season with no expectations from him. The more I think about it though, the more I realize that a rejuvenated Marvelous Williams could turn us from a 47 to a 52 win team.


Curious to see how he fits.
 
dalamon said:
Not sure what to expect of Marvin, honestly. Trying to enter this season with no expectations from him. The more I think about it though, the more I realize that a rejuvenated Marvelous Williams could turn us from a 47 to a 52 win team.


Curious to see how he fits.
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Black Matt Harpring.
 
Given Harris's struggles with the Jazz offensively, Mo SHOULD be an upgrade at PG. And Marvin is definitely an upgrade over anyone we've had at SF for the last few years. I expect Hayward to play more SG and Randy Foye to play some PG when we're facing bigger scoring PGs, who will destroy Mo or Watson or Tinsley... For me, all 3 moves kinda work together and SHOULD improve us overall. How significantly, time will tell...
 
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