Mormon Temple ceremony.

[Jazz Spazz]

So the stories of him using seer stones and money digging on people's farms then getting caught and convicted for it before he had a single follower is made up to discredit him?

Don't know. There has been plenty said about him, and have been plenty of people on his case even before he "had a single follower" to use your words. He had people telling him what to do, and to stop talking about his experiences when he was 14, so why would there not be others as he got older? When there are important and good things in this world, there is always opposition.

*and to add to the Don't know part, I don't care enough or give the accusations enough credibility to dig into it and research it. I already know for myself that Joseph Smith is/was a prophet so digging around in stuff like this is pointless for my growth. A little bit interesting in some ways if you take it with a grain of salt as to the sources and intentions behind it.

 

[mellow]

So the stories of him using seer stones and money digging on people's farms then getting caught and convicted for it before he had a single follower is made up to discredit him?

Now that was trolling way to go about your accusation. Not very sporting if you ask me.

 

[colton]

I've hesitated asking this, but I'd really like to know.

What do LDS posters here think about the popular notion that Joseph Smith was a convicted con-man before forming the church? Is that true?

No, it's not true.

 

[Stoked]

So the stories of him using seer stones and money digging on people's farms then getting caught and convicted for it before he had a single follower is made up to discredit him?

You said it yourself. They are stories. So unless it is proven I won't believe it. Maybe it did happen, who kows but at this point it is just stories.

 

[colton]

So the stories of him using seer stones and money digging on people's farms then getting caught and convicted for it before he had a single follower is made up to discredit him?

He was arrested for something related to "money digging" in 1826, but not convicted of anything.
https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Smith,_Joseph#Smith.2C_Joseph:_Legal_Trials_of_Joseph_Smith

The first charge of being a "disorderly person" involved treasure hunting for hire, brought against him at South Bainbridge, New York, in 1826 by a disgruntled Methodist preacher related to Josiah Stowell, Joseph's employer. When Stowell refused to testify against him at the trial, Joseph was discharged. In July 1830 in the same venue, Joseph was tried and acquitted by another magistrate on charges of "being a disorderly person, of setting the county in an uproar by preaching the Book of Mormon, etc." (HC 1:88). The trial ended at midnight. The next day, he was seized and tried in neighboring Broome County on the same charges, as well as charges of casting out a devil and using pretended angelic visitations to obtain property from others. Following a twenty-three-hour trial involving some forty witnesses, Joseph was again acquitted (HC 1:91-96).

For that matter, and kind of to JazzSpazz's point, he was arrested approximately 30 different times over the course of his life--and never convicted of anything. Either he was one of the world's luckiest criminals, or else there is something to the theory that a lot of people were making up stuff in their attempts to discredit him.

 

[Ron Mexico]

No, I don't think so. According to the Taylor account you just linked to, he fired out the window after Hyrum Smith had been killed.

pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times.

That was the part I was referencing

 

[margodydek]

He was arrested for something related to "money digging" in 1826, but not convicted of anything.
https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Smith,_Joseph#Smith.2C_Joseph:_Legal_Trials_of_Joseph_Smith


For that matter, and kind of to JazzSpazz's point, he was arrested approximately 30 different times over the course of his life--and never convicted. Either he was one of the world's luckiest criminals, or else there is something to the theory that a lot of people were making up stuff in their attempts to discredit him.

For a society that went to great (almost weird) lengths to disprove a "story" from a 14 yr old boy, I believe more in the latter.

 

[colton]

I've never met another Mormon that knew about Joseph having a pistol at Carthage jail, and I grew up Mormon.

Where'd you grow up? Member of the Antarctica 1st Ward?

I'd just like to point out to pickledXgrandma that so far in this thread we have (according to my count):

7 people that were raised Mormon, that knew about Smith having a pistol (me, Stoked, bordy, JazzSpazz, kicky, Archie*, and pickled himself)
0 people that were raised Mormon, that didn't know about it

There was also 1 person who was not raised Mormon, that didn't know about it (Broncster)

I'm starting to also wonder where pickled grew up.


*Archie didn't explicitly state it, but judging from his lack of surprise it seems likely

 

[Hartsock]

My wife is very anti mormon ( had some bad experiences, really bad ones actually ) but she cant seem to grasp why I'm not passionate about it being false. I dont believe it but I also dont think it is crazier than any other religion out there. Joseph Smith, Mohammed, Moses, all pretty similar stories. Whatever let people believe what they want to believe and leave them alone. Damn.

 

[colton]

I remember speaking to the son of a man who dedicated his life to studying Joseph Smith. The man's wrote a number of books about the prophet. His son told me that it was his dad's opinion that if you studied Joseph Smith's life you'd discover enough stuff that shows he was a true prophet, but you'd also discover enough stuff to perhaps discredit that. Ultimately it comes down to whether you choose to believe or not. FWIW, this man chose to accept Joseph Smith as a true prophet.

Interesting perspective, thanks. I think there's something to that.

The church obviously emphasizes Smith's positive traits and de-emphasizes his negative ones. But personally, having learned a lot about him with warts and all has just made him seem more "real" to me--while (like the man you mention) at the same time leaving me convinced that he was a true prophet. But I can understand how learning of the negative stuff could convince someone the other way (particularly if they didn't give serious consideration to the positive stuff at the same time).

 

[colton]

pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times.

That was the part I was referencing

Read the paragraph before that:

Almost instantly another ball passed through the panel of the door, and struck Brother Hyrum on the left side of the nose, entering his face and head. At the same instant, another ball from outside entered his back, passing through his body and striking his watch. The ball came from the back, through the jail window, opposite the door, and must, from its range, have been fired from the Carthage Greys, who were placed there ostensibly for our protection, as the balls from the firearms, shot close by the jail, would have entered the ceiling, we being in the second story, and there never was a time after that when Hyrum could have received the latter wound. Immediately, when the ball struck him, he fell flat on his back, crying as he fell, "I am a dead man!" He never moved afterwards.

I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, "Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!" He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times.

So at least according to that account, Joseph fired the pistol only after Hyrum had been killed.

 

[colton]

My wife is very anti mormon ( had some bad experiences, really bad ones actually ) but she cant seem to grasp why I'm not passionate about it being false. I dont believe it but I also dont think it is crazier than any other religion out there. Joseph Smith, Mohammed, Moses, all pretty similar stories.

I take a similar view. When, for example, other Christians tell me how crazy Joseph Smith's claim to be a prophet was, I tell them that compared to the teaching that some guy in the Middle East 2000 years ago rose from the dead, and that my sins can only be forgiven because that guy somehow suffered for them, Smith's claims are pretty tame.

 

[Gameface]

Now that was trolling way to go about your accusation. Not very sporting if you ask me.

My accusation? My accusation!?!?

All I can do is read what's out there. The sources I have read typically don't like the LDS church. So, I take what they say with a grain of salt. I'd like to know the truth more than win an argument.

 

[mellow]

So here are many replies to a few things in this thread.

Joseph had a gun in carthage, every mormon kid knows it, the mob knew it, the jailer knew it.

Joseph probably didn't kill anyone. People have researced and could not find any deaths listed or attributed to it. Not in the Carthage records (the city & county did keep records back then) and not in any local newspapers. If he had it is highly likely that the anti-mormons would have seized upon it to drum up more popular support for actions against the Mormons. I actually heard an anti mormon account of how John Taylor could not be a prophet because he could even tell if two men hadn't actually died.

Don't try to apply what you think you know about our law system to the legal system of 1830-1840. Anyone could swear out a writ to have someone arrested. There was no police force investigation, no DA screening cases. Swear out a writ and then find a Justice of the peace to go arrest your guy. Saying Joseph was arrested 30 times is only scratching the surface of the stories behind the why and who and when of the events of the time.

 

[Archie Moses]

If you want to know more about Smith, look up Truman Madson.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Read the paragraph before that:


So at least according to that account, Joseph fired the pistol only after Hyrum had been killed.

Okay so he did fire it and hit people but he was retaliating form being fired at and after they killed Hyrum.

This would be an interesting poll to see if people knew that Joseph Smith shot at people in Jail. I think most knew he had a gun but not that he fired it. I could be wrong though.

I think the problem with Joseph Smith history (along with all history especially religous) is that non-LDS dont really except LDS history since they have an angle in telling their side of the story. On the other hand other historians at the time seemed to be anti-mormon and they also are telling the story the way they want people to see it. You dont really have many neutral accounts of what happened. People have a reason to tell their version of a story.

 

[nightmare3983]

Okay so he did fire it and hit people but he was retaliating form being fired at and after they killed Hyrum.

This would be an interesting poll to see if people knew that Joseph Smith shot at people in Jail. I think most knew he had a gun but not that he fired it. I could be wrong though.

I think the problem with Joseph Smith history (along with all history especially religous) is that non-LDS dont really except LDS history since they have an angle in telling their side of the story. On the other hand other historians at the time seemed to be anti-mormon and they also are telling the story the way they want people to see it. You dont really have many neutral accounts of what happened. People have a reason to tell their version of a story.

That's a great point. If only it were as simple as getting an unbiased count solely of what happened.

 

[Archie Moses]

If he did shoot someone, who cares?

 

[GVC]

If he did shoot someone, who cares?

Shooting at an angry mob pales in comparison to Elisha getting 2 she bears to devour 42 kids for calling him bald.

 

[Stoked]

If he did shoot someone, who cares?

Even if he did shoot first most of us probably would have done the same.

If an angry armed mob is coming for me I will feel that my life is in danger. If I feel threatened enough I will open up if armed.