Move On From Hayward?

[Saint Cy of JFC]

So many blind, not-objective apologists on here making excuses for Hayward.

Some people on here try to assess Hayward objectively, rather than blindly praise him and excuse him for the team's continual losses.
And so the homers and apologists call the objective people Hayters. But that's not accurate. I give Hayward props for getting better this past year. He is great defensively. But he's not a #1 and never has been. He is not clutch. He's hit a clutch shot - once or twice, but not consistently. Not enough to justify max money.

So yeah, being objective, if Hayward has value around the league then maybe the Jazz can get something in return for him in a trade - in the hopes of landing a legitimate max money alpha.

You are asking people to be objective yet you dont think Hayward is even worth his current contract.........

 

[Coach Ellis]

Are we supposed to trade every player for an "alpha"? This narrative of Hayward is bananas. If the Jazz can keep him they should. If they're not confident they will, they should be proactive. And yeah, if there's a superstar out there and Hayward in the deal gets it done, then do it. But the idea that because Hayward isn't a top-5 player means he can't be worth the max and has to be what amounts to being dumped is ****ing stupid. Objectively.

Who is this superstar that the Jazz will acquire with sucky suck dumb Hayward? It sounds like he should be worth a lot on the market.

My favorite one is how people will post some dumbass trade idea to get a top 3 draft pick using Hayward, Favors or Hood (plus every other valuable trade asset the Jazz have) and then justify it by saying that any of our players would be great pickups for attracting a free agent. . . but the Jazz shouldn't keep them and pursue that same free agents themselves.

No, it's much better to keep hitting the reset button every three years looking for a "star" in the draft and trading away your top players because you're afraid to pay them. This argument was old back when Hayward went through RFA and it's even older now.

 

[da ThRONe]

My favorite one is how people will post some dumbass trade idea to get a top 3 draft pick using Hayward, Favors or Hood (plus every other valuable trade asset the Jazz have) and then justify it by saying that any of our players would be great pickups for attracting a free agent. . . but the Jazz shouldn't keep them and pursue that same free agents themselves.

No, it's much better to keep hitting the reset button every three years looking for a "star" in the draft and trading away your top players because you're afraid to pay them. This argument was old back when Hayward went through RFA and it's even older now.

You're not taking into consideration the Salt Lake market. Hayward is a greater selling tool in say Boston than SLC.

I don't think the discussion should be about Hayward's talents. The discussion should be can the team contend paying Hayward so much of the cap you it's incapable of affording to get/keep other players within his talent range. Can you get into deep playoffs runs paying Gordon 30mil+ a season. If you think the answer is no and he won't stay for a reasonable price you trade him. If the answer is yes you sign him. Honestly I don't see how after 7 seasons anybody can think Hayward is a guy you can give 30mil+ to and still be able to compete for WCF/Finals runs.

 

[LoPo]

I think Hood could be an alpha. Lyles or Exum could be an alpha. #3 could be an alpha. Hayward and Favors are not alphas. They are not worth max contracts. If we are looking for a definition of "dumbass" then we found it. In Websters, it says "Utah giving Hayward $30 million per year was a pretty dumbass move."

Sent from my VS980 4G using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Jazz4ever]

You're not taking into consideration the Salt Lake market. Hayward is a greater selling tool in say Boston than SLC.

I don't think the discussion should be about Hayward's talents. The discussion should be can the team contend paying Hayward so much of the cap you it's incapable of affording to get/keep other players within his talent range. Can you get into deep playoffs runs paying Gordon 30mil+ a season. If you think the answer is no and he won't stay for a reasonable price you trade him. If the answer is yes you sign him. Honestly I don't see how after 7 seasons anybody can think Hayward is a guy you can give 30mil+ to and still be able to compete for WCF/Finals runs.

This is correct. People have become emotionally attached to Hayward having watched him 6 years, it's normal, I get it. The NBA model says you need a superstar or you will be spinning your wheels in mud.
Toronto is the best case scenario for us, and their 56 wins came because they had Derozan (9.5m) and Lowry (12m) on killer deals which are soon ending. Their off season will consist of reupping Derozan for triple the price, and letting Biyombo walk due to the luxury tax. I think it's like looking in a crystal ball of us in 3 years. Not to mention we're in the west with many young teams already having found their superstars (Davis, Towns, Cousins).

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

This is correct. People have become emotionally attached to Hayward having watched him 6 years, it's normal, I get it. The NBA model says you need a superstar or you will be spinning your wheels in mud.
Toronto is the best case scenario for us, and their 56 wins came because they had Derozan (9.5m) and Lowry (12m) on killer deals which are soon ending. Their off season will consist of reupping Derozan for triple the price, and letting Biyombo walk due to the luxury tax. I think it's like looking in a crystal ball of us in 3 years. Not to mention we're in the west with many young teams already having found their superstars (Davis, Towns, Cousins).

Is it better to try and fail or just give up and sell your best players so you might have a chance at doing the same thing another 4 years down the road?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

IDK why you are comparing us to ****ing Toronto who has a flawed team from the get go. Their best player is a 6' tall PG and their 2nd best player is a SG who can't make 3's, to wrap it all up they don't have a single PF on the roster worth a damn and a meh bench. Our best case scenario far exceeds them because our players are, in theory, more versatile and athletically/physically imposing (which in sports is very important).

 

[fishonjazz]

Are we supposed to trade every player for an "alpha"? This narrative of Hayward is bananas. If the Jazz can keep him they should. If they're not confident they will, they should be proactive. And yeah, if there's a superstar out there and Hayward in the deal gets it done, then do it. But the idea that because Hayward isn't a top-5 player means he can't be worth the max and has to be what amounts to being dumped is ****ing stupid. Objectively.

Who is this superstar that the Jazz will acquire with sucky suck dumb Hayward? It sounds like he should be worth a lot on the market.

Stars are acquired all the time in drafts.
Go through each team and determine their best player (this player is usually better than Hayward).
Then see how that player was acquired. (Almost always through the draft)
Its a matter of time until one of our current players that we drafted becomes better than Hayward or a player we draft in the near future is better than Hayward.

I want to use the max at that point. Hayward isn't good enough. Almost every single team in the league has a player better than Hayward and more worthy of the max. We will have a player better than Hayward and more worthy of the max soon also.
For now we can replace Hayward with a player that is about as good as him for less money and wait to max a better player when that player comes along. Should be soon. We are due. Most other teams have drafted a player than Hayward and I don't think that those teams are just better at it than us (butler was the 30th pick for example).
We will have our guy soon. There is alot of random luck involved. Hayward just isn't on the same level of most max players imo

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Stars are acquired all the time in drafts.
Go through each team and determine their best player (this player is usually better than Hayward).
Then see how that player was acquired. (Almost always through the draft)
Its a matter of time until one of our current players that we drafted becomes better than Hayward or a player we draft in the near future is better than Hayward.

I want to use the max at that point. Hayward isn't good enough. Almost every single team in the league has a player better than Hayward and more worthy of the max. We will have a player better than Hayward and more worthy of the max soon also.
For now we can replace Hayward with a player that is about as good as him for less money and wait to max a better player when that player comes along. Should be soon. We are due. Most other teams have drafted a player than Hayward and I don't think that those teams are just better at it than us (butler was the 30th pick for example).
We will have our guy soon. There is alot of random luck involved. Hayward just isn't on the same level of most max players imo

lol

IM going to pull a Fish "Show me every team that has a player better than Hayward"

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

These are all teams where I feel Hayward would be the best player on each team, or the most valuable:

Boston (Get out of here with telling me you'd rather have a 5'8 PG)
Brooklyn (Obvious)
New York (Unless you really value Porzingis, I don't)
Philly (Obvious)
Chicago (Arguable with Butler, but I think Hayward is better overall and not a team killer)
Detroit (Arguable on how much you value Drummond)
Atlanta (Arguable with how much you value Millsap with his age)
Charlotte (Better than Kemba)
Miami (Better than Wade at this stage of his career, Whiteside arguable)
Orlando (Obvious)
Lakers (Obvious)
Phoenix (Obvious)
Dallas (Obvious)
Memphis (Obvious)
Denver (Obvious)

 

[fishonjazz]

lol

IM going to pull a Fish "Show me every team that has a player better than Hayward"

I have already done this. I went through every team in the league and determine their best player and then listed how they were acquired. Most were better than Hayward (if they weren't better than Hayward, like say isiah thomas, then they were usually cheaper. A few were better and cheaper like KAT).
One was acquired through free agency (LeBron). I think about 5 or 6 were through trade (cp3, harden, and a few others).
The rest were drafted. I already did the research and posted it. I have a newborn baby now and don't have the time.

Our problem is that we have not hit on a player better than Hayward in the draft yet. Maybe one of our current players will be better than him. Maybe a guy from one of the next few drafts will be. Maybe we will be one of the rare teams that gets a guy better than Hayward through a trade or free agency.

Point is Hayward ain't good enough. But I believe we will have a player better than him soon. I hope haywards 32-39 million dollar contract won't hinder us in paying that player.

Now im done responding to you for a while again. You are not worth my time.

 

[Jazz4ever]

These are all teams where I feel Hayward would be the best player on each team, or the most valuable:

Boston (Get out of here with telling me you'd rather have a 5'8 PG)
Brooklyn (Obvious)
New York (Unless you really value Porzingis, I don't)
Philly (Obvious)
Chicago (Arguable with Butler, but I think Hayward is better overall and not a team killer)
Detroit (Arguable on how much you value Drummond)
Atlanta (Arguable with how much you value Millsap with his age)
Charlotte (Better than Kemba)
Miami (Better than Wade at this stage of his career, Whiteside arguable)
Orlando (Obvious)
Lakers (Obvious)
Phoenix (Obvious)
Dallas (Obvious)
Memphis (Obvious)
Denver (Obvious)

You can make a solid case to max him, but would then be reliant on one of your other young guns to break out as a superstar. If you don't see that potential in Exum, Gobert, Favors, or Lyles maybe it makes sense to take a step back (not a reset)? Not only would we be acquiring the #2 or #3 pick with a little superstar potential, would also be drafting top 8 next year in a super stacked draft.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Stars are acquired all the time in drafts.
Go through each team and determine their best player (this player is usually better than Hayward).
Then see how that player was acquired. (Almost always through the draft)
Its a matter of time until one of our current players that we drafted becomes better than Hayward or a player we draft in the near future is better than Hayward.

I want to use the max at that point. Hayward isn't good enough. Almost every single team in the league has a player better than Hayward and more worthy of the max. We will have a player better than Hayward and more worthy of the max soon also.
For now we can replace Hayward with a player that is about as good as him for less money and wait to max a better player when that player comes along. Should be soon. We are due. Most other teams have drafted a player than Hayward and I don't think that those teams are just better at it than us (butler was the 30th pick for example).
We will have our guy soon. There is alot of random luck involved. Hayward just isn't on the same level of most max players imo

So much idiocy in the post, so much to address.

What player can we sign for less money that is as good as Hayward? Please fill me in on this bargain deal because every player worth a damn in the NBA is going to get a HUGE payday this off-season.

Your argument is that we are due to luck into a player who is "really worth the max", which by your definition seems to be a clear cut top 10 NBA player. Damn, that is some great reasoning to not keep Hayward. We are due to luck into someone way better than him any minute now. "Most other teams have drafted a player better than Hayward". Yes, every player in the NBA at one point was drafted, so if they are better than Hayward, someone at one point drafted them.

"Hayward isnt on the level of most max players"

Really? Hayward isn't on the level of Derrick Rose, Kevin Love, Roy Hibbert, Eric Gordon, Joe Johnson, Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Dwight Howard, Carmello Anthony, Paul Millsap, Marc Gasol, Enes Kanter, Jimmy Butler, Tobias Harris, Chandler Parsons, Klay Thompson, Khris Middleton, Tristan THompson, Danilo Gallinari, Brandon Knight, Eric Bledsoe, Reggie Jackson. All these players (these are all max guys) are so far above Hayward it's crazy to think he would be paid at the same level as them. Really? The list of max guys who probably fit your rose colored view of a "max" player are probably 30% of the players who get the max. Another crazy thing is that a lot of these maxed players have had significant injury issues where Hayward has been an iron man by modern NBA standards.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

You can make a solid case to max him, but would then be reliant on one of your other young guns to break out as a superstar. If you don't see that potential in Exum, Gobert, Favors, or Lyles maybe it makes sense to take a step back (not a reset)? Not only would we be acquiring the #2 or #3 pick with a little superstar potential, would also be drafting top 8 next year in a super stacked draft.

IT makes sense if you have a scared FO that doesnt believe in the moves it has made up to the this point. Everything Ive read that they believe heavily in Exum and the rest of the players. It would be dumb to hit the reset button by trading away the best player of that group.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The best part of this is that it's complete deja vu from 2 years ago. A bunch of people here complaining abut how Hayward isn't good enough and me telling them otherwise. We sign Hayward, everyone is pissed off and Im just telling them Hayward is going to live up to it. What does Hayward do? He lives up to it. I know the exact same **** is going to happen again and I will be serving out an extra serving of crow this time next year when Hayward gets that max deal. Can't wait to bump these post liked I bumped Bentley's post about Hayward not being worth 7 million dollars a year.

 

[fishonjazz]

Really? Hayward isn't on the level of Derrick Rose, Kevin Love, Roy Hibbert, Eric Gordon, Joe Johnson, Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Dwight Howard, Carmello Anthony, Paul Millsap, Marc Gasol, Enes Kanter, Jimmy Butler, Tobias Harris, Chandler Parsons, Klay Thompson, Khris Middleton, Tristan THompson, Danilo Gallinari, Reggie Jackson. All these players (these are all max guys) are so far above Hayward it's crazy to think he would be paid at the same level as them. Really? The list of max guys who probably fit your rose colored view of a "max" player are probably 30% of the players who get the max.

Im not saying Hayward won't get max. I'm saying I wouldn't pay him it.
I also wouldn't sign hibbert, melo, rose, love, gordon, johnson, howard, kanter, harris, parsons, middleton, gallinari, or jackson to a max deal. I think those teams made a mistake and many of them probably regret it. I mean look at the teams of those players. Are they contenders due to those players? Loves team is but they might be better without him. Johnsons team was pretty good but not mainly due to him.

Bosh and millsap I probably wouldn't max either. (But I think they are closer to the max than Hayward)
Wade, butler, and thompson are better than Hayward imo and more deserving of the max.

 

[fishonjazz]

The best part of this is that it's complete deja vu from 2 years ago. A bunch of people here complaining abut how Hayward isn't good enough and me telling them otherwise. We sign Hayward, everyone is pissed off and Im just telling them Hayward is going to live up to it. What does Hayward do? He lives up to it. I know the exact same **** is going to happen again and I will be serving out an extra serving of crow this time next year when Hayward gets that max deal. Can't wait to bump these post liked I bumped Bentley's post about Hayward not being worth 7 million dollars a year.

Ya it's a great thing we signed him to his current max deal. Look all the playoff wins and all star appearances that came from it.

If let him leave we might have got a better pick the next year and have a (potentially) better player than him.

Now because we matched his offer from Charlotte we get the reward of hoping he becomes our star that can make us contenders and signing him to an astronomical contact.
So glad it worked out so great.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Im not saying Hayward won't get max. I'm saying I wouldn't pay him it.
I also wouldn't sign hibbert, melo, rose, love, gordon, johnson, howard, kanter, harris, parsons, middleton, gallinari, or jackson to a max deal. I think those teams made a mistake and many of them probably regret it. I mean look at the teams of those players. Are they contenders due to those players? Loves team is but they might be better without him. Johnsons team was pretty good but not mainly due to him.

Bosh and millsap I probably wouldn't max either.
Wade, butler, and thompson are better than Hayward imo and more deserving of the max.

Butler/Thompson arguable, but I disagree. Thompson is great, but is also a product of a great team. Butler is equal to Hayward, but he really wrecked his team this year with public comments and his lack of 3pt shot.

Wade isnt better than Hayward anymore, not by a long-shot

For one, you can nearly guarantee Wade missed 20 games a year. He was healthy this year, but his stats where worse than Hayward's and he offers no floor spacing at all. He also isnt the defender Hayward is. To say Wade is better is simply looking at what he use to do and his reputation. Hayward averages more points on less shots and gets to the FT line more. He is more "alpha" than current Wade is.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Ya it's a great thing we signed him to his current max deal. Look all the playoff wins and all star appearances that came from it.

Back to extreme level idiocy. Has maxing Hayward prevented us from competing? Or is it injuries and lack of spending on rotation pieces?

 

[fishonjazz]

Butler/Thompson arguable, but I disagree. Thompson is great, but is also a product of a great team. Butler is equal to Hayward, but he really wrecked his team this year with public comments and his lack of 3pt shot.

Wade isnt better than Hayward anymore, not by a long-shot

For one, you can nearly guarantee Wade missed 20 games a year. He was healthy this year, but his stats where worse than Hayward's and he offers no floor spacing at all. He also isnt the defender Hayward is. To say Wade is better is simply looking at what he use to do and his reputation. Hayward averages more points on less shots and gets to the FT line more. He is more "alpha" than current Wade is.

I agree about wade. But they landed a young wade in the draft. Prime wade (that they acquired through the draft) is a million times better than Hayward.

The jazz need to draft someone better than Hayward like a lot of teams have done. I think it will happen soon (or a current player will eclipse him).

I just don't think he is all that good.

We just disagree on that basic simple thing. This conversation has no reason to continue.