Move On From Hayward?

[fishonjazz]

I really want to see what this Jazz team is capable of when healthy. Add to it this year instead of redoing it? Hard choices.

The Jazz either need to build on this team or go hard on redoing it. No half measures.

I think that they can trade Hayward and still maintain their current level if play while also creating a possibility for a higher ceiling in the future.

I think replacing Hayward with a good free agent and 2 lottery picks doesn't hurt us much at all.
Then you factor in hood and burks stepping up in Haywards absence (like they have in the past when hayward has been injured) plus lyles, gobert and exum all taking another step up in development.

I think I'm probably in the minority but I believe losing Hayward and replacing him with bazemore and two lottery picks doesn't make us much worse, if at all worse.

 

[Stoked]

I think that they can trade Hayward and still maintain their current level if play while also creating a possibility for a higher ceiling in the future.

I think replacing Hayward with a good free agent and 2 lottery picks doesn't hurt us much at all.
Then you factor in hood and burks stepping up in Haywards absence (like they have in the past when hayward has been injured) plus lyles, gobert and exum all taking another step up in development.

I think I'm probably in the minority but I believe losing Hayward and replacing him with bazemore and two lottery picks doesn't make us much worse, if at all worse.

But does it make us better. Get better or go all in on a tank,

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I think Hayward leaving would create an ideal spot for minutes on a team with lots of money and a chance to be good for many years (due to the young talent on the jazz) and so we would have a better than normal shot at landing a good free agent. Plus the #3 AND the #12. That is what I think replaces hayward. Not just #3.

Also, I think lyles helped us win last year and exum and hood both helped us win the year before. Agree to Disagree.

I love all of this and agree that generally the team that gets the top asset wins the trade.
The jazz should definitely try to get all they can.

Good post overall. I agree with a lot of it.

I think Lyles helped us win some individual games but overall was probably a net negative. His RPM was pretty terrible, but most rookies are rated low by that metric. I just think there is so much going on the court in NBA that we don't see the small mistakes that they make that can really hurt a team. I really like Lyles and he exceeded all of my expectations.

I wouldn't want to wait for FA to find the Hayward replacement. I think we are an attractive FA market to some guys but I just don't think there are enough guys out there and there are so many teams with space.

If you can tell me we get Rudy Gay plus #3 plus a kicker then I can see the idea being successful if you hit on the pick. I do think Boston would be very motivated to get a player of Hayward caliber before FA happens because then it makes them a more attractive FA destination. Veteran players really don't care about draft assets and rookies... they care about what the roster looks like now.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

I disagree. I think losing Hayward and adding #12, #3, and a free agent to go with exum, hood, mack, favors, Gobert, burks, lyles is a playoff team. I think #3, #12, and bazemore/batum or whatever is enough to replace Hayward. Plus I think Gobert, lyles, and hood at a minimum get better next year than they were this past year. (Probably a few others)
I think quin is a good developmental coach so he would get a lot out of #3 and #12 also. He has a good track record of using and developing young players well. (Hood, gobert, lyles, even exum)

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with this, because there is no guarantee that number three and number 12 will be anywhere near as good as Hayward, and that's not even to say that they will be flops. If Exum ends up being good as that summer league game would suggest then you want Hayward. He is a sure thing as our number two and I'm still not convinced that he's not the number one still.


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[Handlogten's Heros]

When we say number one or two we are talking about scoring options right?

Would anyone have said that Curry could be a "number one" on a championship team 3 years ago? What about a number one on a dynastic team that is setting NBA records and may win 2,3,4 championships while defeating individual HoF guys like Durant, Lebron, etc.

I don't think Hayward is this good but I do think the idea of a ball movement based offense with position variance and shooting is potentially more viable than acquiring a superstar and feeding off of him.

As I watched the playoffs I've become a little more optimistic about our long term prospects because of this and the fact that you can get away with murder in the playoffs. All year I watched favors and Hayward get clobbered while Rudy would get fouls called for slight hand contact. If those touch fouls... Like the ones harden gets all year that magically disappear in the playoffs, don't get called then I think we may be suited very well for the playoffs if we ever get there.

 

[fishonjazz]

But does it make us better. Get better or go all in on a tank,

Maybe. Impossible to know. Just maxing Hayward doesn't make us better though. It makes us the same, just with a bigger salary.

 

[fishonjazz]

Would anyone have said that Curry could be a "number one" on a championship team 3 years ago?

Yes. He was averaging 23 points and 7 assists per game on 45% from three.
Had yet to appear in an all star game though.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yes. He was averaging 23 points and 7 assists per game on 45% from three.
Had yet to appear in an all star game though.

Could make a case sure, but I'm not sure it was obvious. The guy was snubbed from the AS game that year?

I just think it might be a bit rash to trade Hayward for #3... If someone bowls me over for the guy then sure. I'm less concerned that he's not a guy that is a true #1 option... whatever that means. I think position variance/flexibility, shooting, and balance may be more important in the future and he offers a lot of that. Iso-ball, dominant alpha scoring is becoming less and less effective imo. Curry is so amazing to me because he does everything within the normal flow of the offense. Never see him just decide to go and get his.

The amount of unpredictability of the GS offense is part of the reason it's so hard to stop. The clear out and give it to one guy the last two minutes of the game is so much easier to plan for... I'm not sure if that is what people mean by we need a true #1... I think that is what I am getting at.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Could make a case sure, but I'm not sure it was obvious. The guy was snubbed from the AS game that year?

I just think it might be a bit rash to trade Hayward for #3... If someone bowls me over for the guy then sure. I'm less concerned that he's not a guy that is a true #1 option... whatever that means. I think position variance/flexibility, shooting, and balance may be more important in the future and he offers a lot of that. Iso-ball, dominant alpha scoring is becoming less and less effective imo. Curry is so amazing to me because he does everything within the normal flow of the offense. Never see him just decide to go and get his.

The amount of unpredictability of the GS offense is part of the reason it's so hard to stop. The clear out and give it to one guy the last two minutes of the game is so much easier to plan for... I'm not sure if that is what people mean by we need a true #1... I think that is what I am getting at.

Fish thinks if we don't trade Hayward we are destined to have the same record forever since players never improve past 26 and our team will have the same injury problems because Hayward was there and caused it all.

 

[fishonjazz]

Fish thinks if we don't trade Hayward we are destined to have the same record forever since players never improve past 26 and our team will have the same injury problems because Hayward was there and caused it all.

This

 

[LoPo]

This conversation just goes in circles. The first question is simple - How good are we this year? I'd say 2nd round at best if we all stay healthy.


The 2nd question is simple - are we good enough to keep Hayward interested in staying? This depends on how we bail out of the playoffs. If we get trounced or we don't even make the playoffs, he might say screw it, opt out and leave. It also might depend on how much we give him. If he's only loyal because we pay him the most, then screw that.

So, it depends on how we all do. It depends on how the season ends. It depends on how much love we show him and vice versa. At the end of day, I freaking hate when a player has this much power. When it's Durant, you have to show your cards because he's a superstar. OKC couldn't trade him for fear of leaving. Hayward, however, is not that guy but we are treating him like he is. If he just walks, we miss a major opportunity to keep this rebuild going. We would have groomed him for 7 years for nothing.

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[Douchebag K]

Thinking Exum is going to be our alpha, all star dominant scorer is pretty ignorant foresight. He could be very good, but not the wing star every contender needs. As for money, yes Hayward will get it somewhere but we shouldn't give it. To take a look at the top 25 contracts in the league. Over half of those contracts are regretted by the teams. In other words, those teams would not give those guys that money today.

How would I spend that money? I would go after Fournier, Barnes, Beal, Batum and Evan Turner who would all cost a fraction of $25+. We would still have the money to keep our young guys who have to get paid in the lifetime of that horrible Hayward max deal.

But you are avoiding my points too - Hayward probably walks next summer of we don't make the 2nd round or we don't give him the absolute biggest longest max. Screw those propositions...

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If you knew the league you would know the teams of Fournier, Batum and Beal are high on their teams and are going to match. Barnes ? Turner ?? to replace Haywards skill set with either of those for the sake of penny pinching .. ouch I do agree he's not necessarily a stud alpha bring home the bacon #1 ... those are few and far between. Also i'm not talking about Exum being the dominant scorer, but the Jazz heirarchy sure are placing a lot of their chips on him being an all-court presence, as much for his smarts and net effect on the game as anything else. He clearly has the physical tools.

Is it a gamble expecting Exum to become that ? Yes Is it a gamble to pay Hayward big bucks and a gamble to expect him to stay ? Of course. But i like those odds and the already there physical length and athleticism the way the team has been built plus the intangibles with chemistry etc a lot more than another round of gambling with draft picks and waiting 3-4 years for that to develop.


One thing i think we can all agree on is that this season is make or break in sooooo many ways. It has to be a 47-50 win season with multiple player improving big time or else we're in trouble.

 

[Douchebag K]

Not sure what you are asking here but irvings career is going better than most players in the nba. All star most years. One of the best at his position. Going to finals.

I'm pretty sure he is happy with how his career is going. Probably wishes it were a little better and he could win a title.

Dude my point is he's a prime time alpha one on one scorer, and defensively a liability. Didn't help them win coming down the 4th in the last game with it all on the line. At home. With the most dominant physical player on his team. Once they started going iso for the last quarter they were screwed. I'm not talking about his career (obviously) but what happens when all chips are on the line. That's why the warriors are so good, they stay unpredictable and the ball keeps moving. They also get a lot more offensive rebounds as a result of the plays they run than what the Cavs did in the fourth the other day.

Obviously i'm exaggerating to make my point, i just think alpha scorers aren't necessary what to put your hopes on.

 

[fishonjazz]

Dude my point is he's a prime time alpha one on one scorer, and defensively a liability. Didn't help them win coming down the 4th in the last game with it all on the line. At home. With the most dominant physical player on his team. Once they started going iso for the last quarter they were screwed. I'm not talking about his career (obviously) but what happens when all chips are on the line. That's why the warriors are so good, they stay unpredictable and the ball keeps moving. They also get a lot more offensive rebounds as a result of the plays they run than what the Cavs did in the fourth the other day.

Obviously i'm exaggerating to make my point, i just think alpha scorers aren't necessary what to put your hopes on.

I think tnt jazz would be much better with irving than Hayward. I would trade Hayward for irving in a heartbeat.

No way in hell the cavs would do that trade though.

 

[Douchebag K]

I think tnt jazz would be much better with irving than Hayward. I would trade Hayward for irving in a heartbeat.

No way in hell the cavs would do that trade though.

Prob not But was Cleveland winning with Irving and a bunch of D League calibre talent before Bron came home ?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The only good thing about this thread is that on Tapatalk this thread's picture is the butt riding the bike.

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[silesian]

Yes. He was averaging 23 points and 7 assists per game on 45% from three.
Had yet to appear in an all star game though.

Can you find a source of someone who said that at the time? Hindsight is 20/20.

I doubt you'd find on Jazzfanz anyone who projected Milsap to be a multiple allstar or significant three point threat when he was playing for the Jazz.

 

[fishonjazz]

Can you find a source of someone who said that at the time? Hindsight is 20/20.

I doubt you'd find on Jazzfanz anyone who projected Milsap to be a multiple allstar or significant three point threat when he was playing for the Jazz.

Lol. HH asked if people thought he would be a #1 option on a championship team at that time.

Of course people wouldn't say that.... Championships are super hard to get so I wouldn't predict that for anyone In the league besides lebron. Hell kd isn't a #1 option on a championship team.

It was obvious though at that time that curry was a legit #1 option. Everyone knew that at that time. Dude was averaging 23 ppg on good efficiency. Shooting 45% from three and 90% from the line and getting good assist numbers.

I'm not saying we need to trade Hayward for a chance at a #1 option for a championship team.... That's way too ambitious. There are only a couple of those in the whole league.

 

[Douchebag K]

Having said stuff about Kyrie earlier .. he's been amazing tonight

 

[fishonjazz]

Prob not But was Cleveland winning with Irving and a bunch of D League calibre talent before Bron came home ?

I don't get your point. Do you think that I believe we should only trade Hayward for a guy that will be the best player on a championship team? That's way too ambitious. I don't expect Hayward to net us a player like lebron or curry. That's silly.

Why did you even bring up kyrie?

My whole point is that I believe we need a player better than Hayward.

I would love to get a guy as good as kyrie on the jazz.