My frustration with this franchise is reaching a peak

[Revolution 9]

My frustration currently is pretty bad, however all is not lost with this team. There are a lot of positives right now. The head against the wall deal breaker is how close we are to doing something special(and I don't understand what we are doing to get there). Now understand this, the Front Office may have a master plan we don't see yet. Until we see what they do this might hurt awhile.

 

[DutchJazzer]

How did you come up with this? What is a Crobain?

a complete and total wreck like kurt Cobain. who the world is better of without(profesionally speaking ofcourse. dont know ty personally. but as a headcoach he is a total wreck and needs to drop of the mortal nba coil)

 

[DutchJazzer]

Burks coming out of the closet could be the break we were needing. Package burks and our pick for Jabari. You can't tell me that the idiotic GMs drafting ahead of us wouldn't consider this. I just saw a ridiculous Pistons team.

i would rather trade hayward then burks.

hayward is demanding too much money and probably wont resign with jazz. or if he does it will be toxic like AK47's contract.

dont want that

 

[DutchJazzer]

People can be mad they are winning but to act like we are not developing our young talent is bogus. The boys who need time on the floor are all playing more than 25 minutes a game.

but are they playiong together?
as 4-5 men units.

NO THEY AR NOT.

so far favors and kanter played ltle together. how can they be david robinson/timduncan like.
or how about burks and burke(also played little together, atleast before hayward got hurt)
or how about burke burks hayward kanter favors.

THEY NEED TO PLAY TOGETHER.

and until recently burks and kanter where not getting significant playing time.

especially if marvin williams is at pf. why would you give mavrin 30+mpg per game at pf. while kanter needs those minutes

 

[BENTLEY]

'95-'96: the Spurs made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs (getting bounced by Utah).

'96-'97: the Spurs tanked to the tune of only 20 wins, missing the playoffs, but winning Tim Duncan in the draft.

'97-'98: the Spurs made it back to the 2nd round of the playoffs (again bounced by Utah).

'98-'99: the Spurs (in Duncan's second year) won the NBA championship.


The point is their '96-'97 season was a step back in order to take two steps forward. Many fans recognize this. We think/thought DL recognized this. I mean, yes, our players are really good - and, of course, we're happy about this. But, like the Spurs of old, we don't want our young team - brimming with talent and potential - to win games THIS year. Tank this year, add a top 5 stud, and play balls out NEXT year. It's a choice between maybe making the 7th/8th seed next year or getting homecourt in the playoffs, perhaps winning the championship in the next couple years.

How do we accomplish this? DL needs to diagnose what's putting the Jazz in W column and either make a trade or fire/hire the coach (with a stop-winning-games wink, wink), or break another finger.

 

[GVC]

The point is their '96-'97 season was a step back in order to take two steps forward. Many fans recognize this. We think/thought DL recognized this. I mean, yes, our players are really good - and, of course, we're happy about this. But, like the Spurs of old, we don't want our young team - brimming with talent and potential - to win games THIS year.

DL did what everyone wanted him to do, getting rid of talented vets and handing the team over to the youth. "Unfortunately", the young talent on this team isn't bad enough to lose enough games to keep pace with Milwaukee, Philly, Orlando and others. Unless DL hires someone to injure players OR trades the young talent on the team, there's not much he can do to guarantee a top-5 pick.

The 20-win Spurs played their best players from the previous season big minutes when healthy. Avery Johnson played 32.5 minutes per game, Vinny Del Negro played 31.2 minutes per game, Sean Elliott played 35.7 minutes per game. The difference from one season to the next was David Robinson, who was legitimately injured. Sean Elliott didn't play after February 5th, opting for surgery, but the Spurs were 11-33 at the time.

What exactly do you suggest DL does? Has it been done before? How successful has tanking been in recent years? The Spurs seem to be the rare exception to a pretty well established rule.

 

[BENTLEY]

Unless DL hires someone to injure players OR trades the young talent on the team, there's not much he can do to guarantee a top-5 pick.

What exactly do you suggest DL does?

I said "break another finger," didn't I?

 

[GVC]

THEY NEED TO PLAY TOGETHER.

Why?

 

[fishonjazz]

How successful has tanking been in recent years?

Hardly any teams have ever really tanked.

Golden state is about the only one i have ever seen blatantly tank

And yes it did work. (Got the guy they wanted and it didnt hurt the psyche of the team)

And they only tanked because thier pick would have vanished completely if they didnt tank.

Not alot of history to go off of.... this year i believe multiple teams will blatantly tank.

 

[BENTLEY]

.... this year i believe multiple teams will blatantly tank.

And I wish the Jazz' tank were a little more blatant.

 

[JimLes]

DL did what everyone wanted him to do, getting rid of talented vets and handing the team over to the youth. "Unfortunately", the young talent on this team isn't bad enough to lose enough games to keep pace with Milwaukee, Philly, Orlando and others.

Which is the whole point here. People keep shouting about how we're being outtanked as if somehow the teams you listed are accomplishing their losing by some sort of subterfuge. They're legitimately bad. They're not putting healthy players on the IL, they don't have a difference maker stashed on the bench they're not using. They're just bad. I mean, the Lakers started this lineup three weeks ago:

Shawne Williams
Jodie Meeks
Jordan Farmar
Jordan Hill
Wesley Johnson

We'd have to trade everyone and let Jeremy, Diante, and Biedrins become our first three options to match this.

 

[GVC]

Hardly any teams have ever really tanked.

Golden state is about the only one i have ever seen blatantly tank

So...the only team that's ever tanked ended up with the 7th overall pick, who now comes off the bench for the 6th best team in the West.

That's all I needed to hear...Let's trade everyone for nothing and sign a bunch of dleague scrubs.

 

[BENTLEY]

So...the only team that's ever tanked ended up with the 7th overall pick, who now comes off the bench for the 6th best team in the West.

That's all I needed to hear...Let's trade everyone for nothing and sign a bunch of dleague scrubs.

Now you're gettin it.

 

[fishonjazz]

Let's trade everyone for nothing and sign a bunch of dleague scrubs.

No need to do that..... the tank is already dead.

Now we should focus on finding out if our core 5 players that will be around next year can build chemistry and play together.

Just put jeffy and marvin on the bench and give them about the same amount of minutes as jeremy evans and this season will be awesome win or lose!

 

[Gameface]

I'm gonna say it in enough places so that I get psychic cred for when it happens. The Jazz are going to win a top-3 in the lotto. Book it.

We don't need to tank, we just need bouncy balls.

 

[Hotdog]

That's the logic around these parts though. Somehow, at once, Marvin and Richard are both insignificant players who are in no way contributing positively to the growth of our young core, as well are players who are so good, they're the reason why we've been playing .500 ball since that 1-13 start. Boggles the mind, doesn't it.

Actually i thought burks, hayward, kanter and favors were good last year and the year before that and even back into college before they ever even met richard jefferson.

Our young guys are good because they have lots of talent, have been practicing all thier lives and have good attitudes.

It boggles my mind that people think jefferson and marvin are somehow responsible for our young guys being good.... were marvin and jefferson helping trey burke last year while he was at michigan?

Good to know all our players stopped developing this July. ****, you're so stupid, I wonder if it hurts when you think. Are you actually claiming that there's no effect on development to playing with players? That if Jefferson wasn't spotting up behind the arc and hitting shots, and Favors was instead just throwing his passes into the crowd at the spot where Jefferson would stand, that he would develop just as well?

Im saying thay burks and kanter are players..... do you disagree?
So hayward burke kanter burks favors can all be on the court at the same time and develop.
Marvin and jefferson can give advice coming off the bench. Or whatever other players the jazz aquire... like i said, last year jefferson was nowhere around our young guys and they developed just fine.
There is no special powers that jefferson and marvin have (like you seem to think) that make young guys good basketball players.... they have been good basketball players all thier lives without jeffy or marv helping them and they will continue to he good basketball players after those two leave.

I think its Trey Burke that is the reason why we are winning. Its not really Jefferson or Marvin, but you do need some kind if decent players surrounding( Burke, Favors, Burks, Hayward, etc..) to win. Marvin and Jefferson are helping with the wins and they are contributing to the development of the players. If you play on a better/deeper team than you are probably more likely to pick up good habits. But Jefferson and Marvin dont really mean much in terms of their individual skills. We could swap them out for some other players that are decent, and be the same team.


I think the point here is that shipping Jefferson and Marvin off would help us be a worse team this year as long as we dont refill that hole with someone equal to them then we can tank on. We're talking like a Dleaguer is someone we would need to fill there.

Would it make our core young players digress or stall their progression? Possibly, but not a lot and not permanently. And overall it would be better for the future if we did make a move to tank harder. The young players would get over it soon enough and our asset collection would be a lot greater in terms of value. Its just a smart business decision to do it.

Having said all that, I dont think the time is now to do it. We have plenty of time to let this play out. At least until the Allstar break. Why not enjoy a little success the team can use as hope for the next year for a little bit. As I have said before, it is likely that we suffer an injury and that derails us. Not guaranteed, but likely. Why not wait it out and see if thats what is the key to tanking. We preferably dont want to send the wrong message to our players about whether or not we want them to win. We want them to strive to win. That is good for development. If they suck because they lack help because of injuries then they can keep that in the back of there minds for going forward that they can be good next year if the team stays healthy. Thats good for motivation.

 

[JimLes]

I think the point here is that shipping Jefferson and Marvin off would help us be a worse team this year as long as we dont refill that hole with someone equal to them. We're talking like a Dleaguer is someone we would need to fill there.

What Marvin and Richard bring to the table is not that valuable. According to basketball-reference, Marvin's PER is 14 and Richard's 12.6. To put that into perspective, Jeremy's is 17.6. League average is 15. Even if you replace them with the likes of Garret and Clarke, you get 16.3 combined PER. That's a decrease of 10 altogether. Does that really make us go from where we are no to Bucks level?

Please not that I'm in no way suggesting PER to be authoritative, I just wanted to use one of the numbers that attempts to measure a player's total contribution to his team.

 

[fishonjazz]

What Marvin and Richard bring to the table is not that valuable. According to basketball-reference, Marvin's PER is 14 and Richard's 12.6. To put that into perspective, Jeremy's is 17.6. League average is 15. Even if you replace them with the likes of Garret and Clarke, you get 16.3 combined PER. That's a decrease of 10 altogether. Does that really make us go from where we are no to Bucks level?

Please not that I'm in no way suggesting PER to be authoritative, I just wanted to use one of the numbers that attempts to measure a player's total contribution to his team.

I agree with this post.

Marvin and jeffy suck.
Clarke, evans, garrett, rush or whoever would just take thier place and we would still be too good.

The tank is dead as long as we have the core 5 and they are healthy.

 

[BENTLEY]

I think its Trey Burke that is the reason why we are winning.

Correct. That's my belief too.

overall it would be better for the future if we did make a move to tank harder. The young players would get over it soon enough and our asset collection would be a lot greater in terms of value. Its just a smart business decision to do it.

Having said all that, I dont think the time is now to do it. We have plenty of time to let this play out. At least until the Allstar break. Why not enjoy a little success the team can use as hope for the next year for a little bit. As I have said before, it is likely that we suffer an injury and that derails us. Not guaranteed, but likely. Why not wait it out and see if thats what is the key to tanking. We preferably dont want to send the wrong message to our players about whether or not we want them to win. We want them to strive to win. That is good for development. If they suck because they lack help because of injuries then they can keep that in the back of there minds for going forward that they can be good next year if the team stays healthy. Thats good for motivation.

I concede to your logic.
Who's calling you a hack?

 

[Hotdog]

That's the logic around these parts though. Somehow, at once, Marvin and Richard are both insignificant players who are in no way contributing positively to the growth of our young core, as well are players who are so good, they're the reason why we've been playing .500 ball since that 1-13 start. Boggles the mind, doesn't it.

Actually i thought burks, hayward, kanter and favors were good last year and the year before that and even back into college before they ever even met richard jefferson.

Our young guys are good because they have lots of talent, have been practicing all thier lives and have good attitudes.

It boggles my mind that people think jefferson and marvin are somehow responsible for our young guys being good.... were marvin and jefferson helping trey burke last year while he was at michigan?

Good to know all our players stopped developing this July. ****, you're so stupid, I wonder if it hurts when you think. Are you actually claiming that there's no effect on development to playing with players? That if Jefferson wasn't spotting up behind the arc and hitting shots, and Favors was instead just throwing his passes into the crowd at the spot where Jefferson would stand, that he would develop just as well?

What Marvin and Richard bring to the table is not that valuable. According to basketball-reference, Marvin's PER is 14 and Richard's 12.6. To put that into perspective, Jeremy's is 17.6. League average is 15. Even if you replace them with the likes of Garret and Clarke, you get 16.3 combined PER. That's a decrease of 10 altogether. Does that really make us go from where we are no to Bucks level?

Please not that I'm in no way suggesting PER to be authoritative, I just wanted to use one of the numbers that attempts to measure a player's total contribution to his team.

I dont think they were any good before Trey Burke started playing. What was their per before Trey?

Im willing to bet it was worse.

Trey makes Marvin and Jefferson better. Not the other way around.