What's new

Of past and present, and a franchise's identity

JAZZFAN_2814

Active Member
After watching Sloan's gut-wrenching farewell, itself precipitated by another listless (or is that pissy, premeditated and putrid?) performance from Deron Williams, it occurred to me: what does this franchise stand for?

Loyalty. Commitment. Stability. Honesty. Any sense of right and wrong.

At a bare minimum, I believed that this franchise had these characteristics -- however imperfect or altogether flawed they may have been in execution, either momentarily or as that selfsame manifestation -- and that through them, or in their pursuit, this was itself a source of pride, and there could be some sense of decency in a league that was otherwise both laughable and debased.

After this display -- and have no doubt, this was a shocking mess that would be even more noted if it took place in a bigger market -- I feel that it wasn't so much a lie, as it was (IS) a much more limited, and delicate, thing. Something that's been thrown away in cowardice and desperation.

Phil Johnson and Jerry Sloan again displayed those positive characteristics, to the very bitter, and sad, end. More striking was to realize that, full out, both as regards who was in that press room and the central, absent figure in all this (itself a likely portent, and amusing microcosm-as-characteristic), that Sloan and Johnson were completely separate from that room.

And thus, at least at this point, the rest of the organization. An organization that they're no longer a part of, as is the preferred outcome.

From that, a franchise that can't be said to represent anything Sloan and his lieutenant did as friends and leaders. That these things were clearly rejected -- along with Sloan -- by the rest of the organization, when such concepts became too frightening and difficult to follow through, to actually live with and live up to.

That's the moment you truly learn about someone. When pious words are more than that, when they must be actionable process and inherent character in those decisions, at a difficult time.

Not only did Jerry and Phil live up to these standards, they represent how insular and dichotomous they were relative to this franchise; to me, then, revealing a great deal as to what's been happening not just this season, but likely for many years in this organization, that now simply just is this organization.

So many things become clearer, whereas before I only faintly suspected; from the first quarter deficits, Deron's body language, his "injury", the comeback that coincided with the All-Star announcement, et cetera, et cetera.

Why did the team appear to run its offense more efficiently -- more specifically, with life and coherency; that is, something approaching full sets -- than it had all season, with Deron out and Earl Watson at the point? Even without the talent, there was a sense of a guy over those four games facilitating offensive production.

From the beginning of this season to...whatever this moment truly is, Deron has so often either acted out -- and acted badly -- or shown a lack of interest altogether, that tellingly has mirrored and mired this team throughout the season. A real leader.

From throwing the ball at Hayward's head -- so pathetic -- to just throwing it away against the Bulls -- so apathetic -- Deron's conduct has become a series of immature, imbalanced positions that have likewise helped to put the Jazz in their very sorry position.

And I'll say this, I truly believe that, considering what has now transpired, Deron both sat out when he could have played and, more damningly, made a power play so absolute against Sloan that it carried over to the floor; that he, quite possibly, threw that game against Chicago.

Did he do this consciously? I really don't know. But his lack of interest and effort was so obvious in that game that, combined with the details that came out afterwards, I really doubt if he cared. And, thinking about it further, Deron's looked and played this way for quite a stretch of this season.

I think he wants to run the team. Wish fulfilled. Don't kid yourself that Corbin is in charge of anything.

Miller? He sees Deron not necessarily as the team's leader, but the FRANCHISE's biggest commercial interest. The mistake being made, is that I doubt this move -- no matter what Deron made clear he wanted (and I have no doubt, by explicit and implicit actions, that it was Sloan gone) -- does much of anything to keep him in a Jazz uniform.

Does that mean that I think the Millers wanted Sloan to leave? No, not at all. But it does mean that Gregg did not have the courage to stand by Sloan when the team's star decided to target him, both in the backrooms and on the floor. It means that this is an organization that stands not on principles or character, but little more than the dirt of the Delta Center's foundation. A circular and corrupted outcome, from a group that has no interest in or concept of what this franchise had with Sloan, or the people, players, now gone; an era noted, but not respected.

I do know this: I don't know that I care about this team any longer. I don't think I like Deron. In fact, I think he is rather despicable.

Not so much because Jerry left, but because of the way he was forced out. There's no doubt that he was treated badly, that this wasn't simply a personal decision, a lack of energy or interest, not only in the abruptness of it but also the reaction Sloan's only true ally in the matter, Phil Johnson. Very clearly, Johnson left with Sloan as a statement of principle. There were sides and lines drawn, and Johnson was obviously too connected to Sloan from both vantages.

All of this couldn't help but make me think of Janus, the two-faced Roman god, always looking toward the past&future as one; beginnings and endings, death as rebirth and, for the Jazz, a sense that the head is now broken by these discordant interests made literal. That there is no future, because of what was not only designated as the past, but also because these fundamental elements were treated as separate from the whole. Treated like so much trash.

In the end, I don't know what this team is at the moment. But I do know what this franchise isn't. Some will try for plausible deniability -- for Deron, O'Connor, the Millers -- but, then, some people also think that Jonathan Pollard should be released; these people are, if not zealots, then those with motives and loyalties counter to anything I believe is right or decent.

And because of that, I don't know why I should root for this team at all. Something I never thought I'd say. Itself shocking and kind of sad.

But honest. Which is now something, like so much else, that is missing from this franchise.
 
The next time I see you not piss on something and do it succinctly will be the first.

Bullet points:
-It's Deron's fault because Sloan was a deity and he was going to coach forever if not for Deron willfully missing and throwing games.
-Blathering.
 
It's especially interesting this is coming from the loudest Boozer homer still left on the board not named Sloanfeld. That there's less evidence of the charges he's levying against Deron than that Boozer was an *******.

You can't obfuscate the true nature of your childish villains vs. heroes/victims paradigm that leads people to boo their own players and team with an elaborate - to the point of unnecessary and plainly absurd - vocabulary and general rhetoric. Maybe that's pot calling the kettle black, but there it is.

Generally I agree with your posts and think them well-written even if too long-winded. This is hysterical rubbish, though.
 
I like the bringing up of Janus. At the same time, your post somehow misses the huge ***** in the armor of Sloan implied by your arguments.

^^
it edited out chunk with an "i," which was not intended as a racial slur.
 
Last edited:
Well I mostly agree.

The November player of the month dogged the season since to strong arm Sloan's departure. I don't fault DWill for challenging Sloan's resolve and power in the organization, but I do fault him for how he went about it. It seemed very passive aggressive.

In the end I don't believe Greg stood behind the coach 100% as he says he is committed to.
 
The next time I see you not piss on something and do it succinctly will be the first.

Bullet points:
-It's Deron's fault because Sloan was a deity and he was going to coach forever if not for Deron willfully missing and throwing games.

I've been analytical about Sloan's faults in the past, but that has nothing to do with what transpired in his dismissal. Which is clearly what it was.

The point of the thread -- its basic theme -- was principles.

If you can't understand context -- for arguments and conduct -- then you're about par for the course around here.

And generally? I think better of you.

That bullet-point is ********.

-Blathering.

Is that meta-analysis? ADD?

Or just willful: i.e. it's blather because, apropos of reductio ad absurdum, you don't like it.

TEAM DERR-ON!

I would make the key point that lines were drawn. Between two factions. Sloan lost.

Did I think he was perfect? No. Did he make a lot of mistakes? Sure.

But that's separate from the issue of his dismissal, how it came about. And why.

If you believe that, because there's no smoking gun, Deron's absolutely innocent, well, that's again too convenient and reductive from my vantage. I think it's pretty clear that he not only did nothing to support Sloan, but actively pushed for his removal. And I think he's been playing in a coma.

If you don't? Fine. We'll disagree. Imagine that.

In the end, the simplicity you see in my stance, I think reflects back at you.
 
I've been analytical about Sloan's faults in the past, but that has nothing to do with what transpired in his dismissal. Which is clearly what it was.

The point of the thread -- its basic theme -- was principles.

If you can't understand context -- for arguments and conduct -- then you're about par for the course around here.

And generally? I think better of you.

That bullet-point is ********.



Is that meta-analysis? ADD?

Or just willful: i.e. it's blather because, apropos of reductio ad absurdum, you don't like it.

TEAM DERR-ON!

I would make the key point that lines were drawn. Between two factions. Sloan lost.

Did I think he was perfect? No. Did he make a lot of mistakes? Sure.

But that's separate from the issue of his dismissal, how it came about. And why.

If you believe that, because there's no smoking gun, Deron's absolutely innocent, well, that's again too convenient and reductive from my vantage. I think it's pretty clear that he not only did nothing to support Sloan, but actively pushed for his removal. And I think he's been playing in a coma.

If you don't? Fine. We'll disagree. Imagine that.

In the end, the simplicity you see in my stance, I think reflects back at you.

You think your thoughts need their own thread. They can boil down to a more elemental and palatable product if you want it to. You lost me when you started saying Deron has been conspiring to remove the franchise's most beloved personality when he could find a way out in a year and a half or less. It would be far easier for Deron to force himself out, and yet, there's apparently even less evidence of that than that he tried to destroy a man in his way.

Let me reduce; Come on.
 
Well I mostly agree.

The November player of the month dogged the season since to strong arm Sloan's departure. I don't fault DWill for challenging Sloan's resolve and power in the organization, but I do fault him for how he went about it. It seemed very passive aggressive.

Sure. Except you have no idea what went on behind the scenes. How do you know Williams didn't try to exhaust internal resources and work with Sloan?
 
You lost me when you started saying Deron has been conspiring to remove the franchise's most beloved personality when he could find a way out in a year and a half or less. It would be far easier for Deron to force himself out, and yet, there's apparently even less evidence of that than that he tried to destroy a man in his way.

I'm interested in a reasonable response to this.
 
You think your thoughts need their own thread. They can boil down to a more elemental and palatable product if you want it to. You lost me when you started saying Deron has been conspiring to remove the franchise's most beloved personality when he could find a way out in a year and a half or less. It would be far easier for Deron to force himself out, and yet, there's apparently even less evidence of that than that he tried to destroy a man in his way.

Let me reduce; Come on.

So he is passive aggressive.
 
You think your thoughts need their own thread.

How many threads have been started in the last day? How many threads have I started in my history on this board, or the one before?

There was a theme and reason for a separate thread.

So, yeah. Like a lot of people, I had certain thoughts that I wanted to represent in a new thread.

How is your parsing, or dissembling, this not its own blather?

They can boil down to a more elemental and palatable product if you want it to.

So your standard is some fact, instead of its own subjective preference?

I didn't know that.

You lost me when you started saying Deron has been conspiring to remove the franchise's most beloved personality when he could find a way out in a year and a half or less.

Oh, I think he very much used that. As explicit or implied leverage to get his way.

Which is, really, my point. Thanks for underlining it.

It would be far easier for Deron to force himself out,

Do you not see that this is a circular point? Particularly as regards a spineless owner, and an inept GM?

and yet, there's apparently even less evidence of that than that he tried to destroy a man in his way.

What? This seems rather blathery. Sorry to say.
 
Deron went through all of that effort to vilify himself and potentially make his remaining time here hellacious when he could either force himself out or bide his time. That makes a ton of sense, especially since there is no precedent for it.
 
Deron went through all of that effort to vilify himself and potentially make his remaining time here hellacious when he could either force himself out or bide his time.

And management understands the danger in this.

Further, from this, Deron understands his power.

Not so illogical, at all. The more you belabor it, the more you drive the point home.

That makes a ton of sense, especially since there is no precedent for it.

How many coaches were Jerry Sloan?

And yet, it's clear to all of us who was more important. Right? Isn't that even the assumption of Deron backers? Isn't that THE assumption for Deron?

How important he is?

So far as precedent, megalomania is not exactly a new concept. Nor a coup.
 
Deron went through all of that effort to vilify himself and potentially make his remaining time here hellacious when he could either force himself out or bide his time. That makes a ton of sense, especially since there is no precedent for it.

You don't understand a passive aggressive person. Refer to the Hayward situation. Lashing out at a 20 year old rookie when you are upset at something else is passive aggressive. There is precedent.

I think that is how he has acted since the game after he received his November player of the month award. He dogged the Dallas game.
 
You don't understand a passive aggressive person. Refer to the Hayward situation. Lashing out at a 20 year old rookie when you are upset at something else is passive aggressive. There is precedent.

You don't know what passive aggressive means if you think that is an example.
 
JazzFan_2814: your analysis is funadmentally flawed in your insistence that Sloan was fired. He was not, he quit, plain and simple. Or is he now a liar?

Did trouble with Deron help lead to him leaving now? Likely, but as he said it was largely age and energy.

If he was fired, who do you think did it? Do you really think KOC had the authority to fire the HOF HC of 23 years? Do you think Greggy had the balls? No, the only way this was ever going to happen was for Sloan decided it was time to hang it up. And that is what happened.

So, put that into your analyzer and start over again. Your original premise is wrong.
 
JazzFan_2814: your analysis is funadmentally flawed in your insistence that Sloan was fired. He was not, he quit, plain and simple.

He quit. After he learned that the Jazz were no longer his.

Or is he now a liar?

No. What Sloan is, in his own gruff, curmudgeonly way is tactful and, more than that, loyal.

He didn't want to hurt the organization, even as they were hurting him.

I know. I know. Foreign concepts.

If he was fired, who do you think did it? Do you really think KOC had the authority to fire the HOF HC of 23 years?

I discussed this in the post. Try reading comprehension before replying, next time.

Anyway, the point is that these figures clearly sided with the star player, instead of the HOF coach. And with the player doing everything -- taking games off, playing like he was already off the team, ignoring Sloan, changing plays, breaking plays, et cetera -- to push Sloan off the bench, there's no way Jerry could operate, could lead the team, without management's backing.

He didn't get it, and as he predicted many times over many years, that meant it was time to go.

Are you so dim that you think this is some sort of semantic win for your side?
 
Back
Top