PG and first team O this year

[franklin]

Would rep if I could. MAYBE Burks can play some backup PG. But he's NOT going to be an adequate starting PG in the NBA.

And by "traditional PG," I think you misunderstand me. Jazz DEFINITELY need a PG to bring the ball up and one who can match up against opposing PG's. But we don't need to have a traditional one in the sense that all the offense runs through him. We have Hayward, Burks and even Hood who are going to be play makers. We don't need a Stockton, Williams or Burke who stand and dribble at the top of the key waiting to either initiate the P&R or try to break the opposing PG down and go 1-on-1 as Deron and Trey did/do.

Agreed. A point guard with a shot will be adequate. If Burks could shoot half reasonable he would be good enough. I want to see 12 and 7 from him this year on 45% from 2 and 35% from 3. I would consider that solid improvement.

A guy like Calderon from 2 seasons ago would fit very very well. Not ideal, but a great fit and affordable contract.

 

[fishonjazz]

With that starting lineup the second unit will score about 2 ppg.

You don't have to put all backups in at the same time.
Stagger the lineups and mix and match bench with starters

 

[fishonjazz]

Agreed. A point guard with a shot will be adequate. If Burks could shoot half reasonable he would be good enough. I want to see 12 and 7 from him this year on 45% from 2 and 35% from 3. I would consider that solid improvement.

Well last year he averaged 14 pts per game and shot 38.2% from three point land while being injured and playing in a new system under a rookie head coach. So he is already close to some of your numbers. His field goal percentage was low but i think that playing injured and not wanted to attack the rim as much played a part in that. (he was taking shots further from the hoop)
I think that a full off-season and training camp with Quin Snyder and being healthy will bring the field goal percentage up.

As for the 7 that you want him to average, Im not sure if you mean assists or rebounds but either way you will be disappointed in that regard.

7 assists per game would rank number 1 in the nba for shooting guards.
7 rebounds per game would rank number 1 in the nba as well by a large margin (jimmy butler lead all shooting guards with 5.8 per game)

So as far as that goes, you are being way too unrealistic.

He could definately average 12 points (already averaged 14 last year) per game and shoot 35% from 3 (shot 38% from 3 last year) and shoot 45% from the field (he shot 45.7% from the field in 2013-14)

 

[♪alt13]

Agreed. A point guard with a shot will be adequate. If Burks could shoot half reasonable he would be good enough. I want to see 12 and 7 from him this year on 45% from 2 and 35% from 3. I would consider that solid improvement.

A guy like Calderon from 2 seasons ago would fit very very well. Not ideal, but a great fit and affordable contract.

IIRC

Doesn't Burks already shoot those .pct's? I'm assuming by 12 and 7 you mean PPG and Ast? I'm not gunna look it up but I'm pretty sure he was around 12 and 3 last season before he went down. i'd for sure like to see him bring his Ast up and I think he can. With Hayward and Hood 5 would be sweet.

 

[NAOS]

BTW... I like that we have this difference in thinking. It's making me excited for the season.

Agreed. A point guard with a shot will be adequate. If Burks could shoot half reasonable he would be good enough. I want to see 12 and 7 from him this year on 45% from 2 and 35% from 3. I would consider that solid improvement.

A guy like Calderon from 2 seasons ago would fit very very well. Not ideal, but a great fit and affordable contract.

....and there you go again.... talking about options that aren't currently available.

For the record, I'm all in favor of the right trade. If we get that, then I've already reserved my right to re-think the Burks-Hay-Hood combo. I've learned it isn't realistic to wait for the Utah Jazz to make a trade. So I base my expectation on "staying the path."

 

[fishonjazz]

IIRC

Doesn't Burks already shoot those .pct's? I'm assuming by 12 and 7 you mean PPG and Ast? I'm not gunna look it up but I'm pretty sure he was around 12 and 3 last season before he went down. i'd for sure like to see him bring his Ast up and I think he can. With Hayward and Hood 5 would be sweet.

Well last year he averaged 14 pts per game and shot 38.2% from three point land while being injured and playing in a new system under a rookie head coach. So he is already close to some of your numbers. His field goal percentage was low but i think that playing injured and not wanted to attack the rim as much played a part in that. (he was taking shots further from the hoop)
I think that a full off-season and training camp with Quin Snyder and being healthy will bring the field goal percentage up.

As for the 7 that you want him to average, Im not sure if you mean assists or rebounds but either way you will be disappointed in that regard.

7 assists per game would rank number 1 in the nba for shooting guards.
7 rebounds per game would rank number 1 in the nba as well by a large margin (jimmy butler lead all shooting guards with 5.8 per game)

So as far as that goes, you are being way too unrealistic.

He could definately average 12 points (already averaged 14 last year) per game and shoot 35% from 3 (shot 38% from 3 last year) and shoot 45% from the field (he shot 45.7% from the field in 2013-14)

 

[da ThRONe]

Again I think the criticism of Burke not passing isn't fair. He lead the team in assist %. And lead the team in apg the last two years. Guys have missed a lot of easy shot Trey creates. He has great chemistry with Favors out of the PNR. Not to mention we saw Trey transform from "scoring" PG to true PG from his 1st to 2nd year in at Michigan. I really think Burke is going to really shock a lot of people this season. Trey's a smart player and I think he'll adjust his play style while working tirelessly to improve on his weaknesses. A lot of players need a few seasons to find their niche.

 

[b_line]

Agreed. A point guard with a shot will be adequate. If Burks could shoot half reasonable he would be good enough. I want to see 12 and 7 from him this year on 45% from 2 and 35% from 3. I would consider that solid improvement.

A guy like Calderon from 2 seasons ago would fit very very well. Not ideal, but a great fit and affordable contract.

I read this as if you were talking about Burke, then had to re read it and realized you said Burks. Did you mean Burke here?

 

[franklin]

Well last year he averaged 14 pts per game and shot 38.2% from three point land while being injured and playing in a new system under a rookie head coach. So he is already close to some of your numbers. His field goal percentage was low but i think that playing injured and not wanted to attack the rim as much played a part in that. (he was taking shots further from the hoop)
I think that a full off-season and training camp with Quin Snyder and being healthy will bring the field goal percentage up.

As for the 7 that you want him to average, Im not sure if you mean assists or rebounds but either way you will be disappointed in that regard.

7 assists per game would rank number 1 in the nba for shooting guards.
7 rebounds per game would rank number 1 in the nba as well by a large margin (jimmy butler lead all shooting guards with 5.8 per game)

So as far as that goes, you are being way too unrealistic.

He could definately average 12 points (already averaged 14 last year) per game and shoot 35% from 3 (shot 38% from 3 last year) and shoot 45% from the field (he shot 45.7% from the field in 2013-14)

IIRC

Doesn't Burks already shoot those .pct's? I'm assuming by 12 and 7 you mean PPG and Ast? I'm not gunna look it up but I'm pretty sure he was around 12 and 3 last season before he went down. i'd for sure like to see him bring his Ast up and I think he can. With Hayward and Hood 5 would be sweet.

I read this as if you were talking about Burke, then had to re read it and realized you said Burks. Did you mean Burke here?

Yes, Burke not Burks. It's going to get real bad if Trey Lyles gets any significant minutes.

 

[fishonjazz]

I read this as if you were talking about Burke, then had to re read it and realized you said Burks. Did you mean Burke here?

Ya, now that I look at it that way I think you might be right

 

[franklin]

BTW... I like that we have this difference in thinking. It's making me excited for the season.




....and there you go again.... talking about options that aren't currently available.

For the record, I'm all in favor of the right trade. If we get that, then I've already reserved my right to re-think the Burks-Hay-Hood combo. I've learned it isn't realistic to wait for the Utah Jazz to make a trade. So I base my expectation on "staying the path."

Internal improvement from Burke isn't an option?

You can stick with this silly experiment but you'll end up wrong for two reasons: 1) It's plain silliness, especially with two paint dominant bigs, and 2) the Jazz do not need any additional defense, and, there's a chance Burks is a downgrade from Burke at pg defense. The Jazz have the best defense in the league WITH BURKE. Downgrading offense for a marginal chance at improved defense is horrible strategy.

The Jazz need more facilitation, that is clear. Plugging Burks into a non-system of constant pnrnpnrnpnr is not going to accomplish anything but less points and less assisted points. If Burke cannot improve then one of the backups is the available option. Don't give me any nonsense about them not being able to trade for a decent veteran with a shot either. There are always older point guards to be had. Always. They have how many 2nd round picks? That's a simple trade to deal.

 

[NUMBERICA]

A washed-up Calderon would still be a significant addition to this team because he should be able to do three things until the day he retires: hit open 3s, not turn the ball over, facilitate.

 

[Miggs]

A washed-up Calderon would still be a significant addition to this team because he should be able to do three things until the day he retires: hit open 3s, not turn the ball over, facilitate.

Hit free throws too.

 

[gregbroncs]

Internal improvement from Burke isn't an option?

You can stick with this silly experiment but you'll end up wrong for two reasons: 1) It's plain silliness, especially with two paint dominant bigs, and 2) the Jazz do not need any additional defense, and, there's a chance Burks is a downgrade from Burke at pg defense. The Jazz have the best defense in the league WITH BURKE. Downgrading offense for a marginal chance at improved defense is horrible strategy.

The Jazz need more facilitation, that is clear. Plugging Burks into a non-system of constant pnrnpnrnpnr is not going to accomplish anything but less points and less assisted points. If Burke cannot improve then one of the backups is the available option. Don't give me any nonsense about them not being able to trade for a decent veteran with a shot either. There are always older point guards to be had. Always. They have how many 2nd round picks? That's a simple trade to deal.

I think most of us disagree that Burks is a downgrade on offense to Burke. The Jazz had the best defense in the NBA with Burke on the 2nd string and their winning did not start until Burke was benched. What makes you think putting him back in the starting lineup fixes the problems they had with him starting last season? How does a lesser shooter in Burke help spacing for those paint dominant bigs over the higher % shooter in Burks?
.
I'm not sold on Burks being anything but a failure as a PG. But I think Burke is already a failure as a starting caliber PG and just can't see anything he does better than Burks. Burks doesn't facilitate but neither does Burke. Burks is a better shooter, Better attacking the rim, and is bigger, more athletic and just as fast. I just can't see Burks as a downgrade in anyway to Burke.

 

[franklin]

I think most of us disagree that Burks is a downgrade on offense to Burke. The Jazz had the best defense in the NBA with Burke on the 2nd string and their winning did not start until Burke was benched. What makes you think putting him back in the starting lineup fixes the problems they had with him starting last season? How does a lesser shooter in Burke help spacing for those paint dominant bigs over the higher % shooter in Burks?
.
I'm not sold on Burks being anything but a failure as a PG. But I think Burke is already a failure as a starting caliber PG and just can't see anything he does better than Burks. Burks doesn't facilitate but neither does Burke. Burks is a better shooter, Better attacking the rim, and is bigger, more athletic and just as fast. I just can't see Burks as a downgrade in anyway to Burke.

You can disagree to your heart's content, but disagreeing with me and you'll be wrong as usual. Burke can shoot just fine as a floor spacer. Burks cannot facilitate and do the things necessary in short clock situations that Burke can (even if poorly).

Burks is better at attacking the rim. Clearly you are right there. If you want to get into specific isolated talents then Burks is the guy. If you want to consider shot clock, necessary facilitating, etc. then Burks is (by far) not the guy.

Maybe Quin Snyder will be the coach god that cures the NBA with his simplistic pnrnprnrp system with Burks-Hayward-Hood. I doubt that, and I doubt he believes that despite his lack of having a true offense with this group.

 

[gregbroncs]

You can disagree to your heart's content, but disagreeing with me and you'll be wrong as usual. Burke can shoot just fine as a floor spacer. Burks cannot facilitate and do the things necessary in short clock situations that Burke can (even if poorly).

Burks is better at attacking the rim. Clearly you are right there. If you want to get into specific isolated talents then Burks is the guy. If you want to consider shot clock, necessary facilitating, etc. then Burks is (by far) not the guy.

Maybe Quin Snyder will be the coach god that cures the NBA with his simplistic pnrnprnrp system with Burks-Hayward-Hood. I doubt that, and I doubt he believes that despite his lack of having a true offense with this group.

I'd rather Burke or Burks not have the ball in short clock situations very often. The guy that should be doing that for this team is named Hayward more often than not. And frankly having Burke on the floor puts the team in those short clock situations more often than having him on the bench. Not only that but when in those short clock situations Burke doesn't give the ball to Hayward to make the play. He tries to do it himself and as you said does it poorly.
.
And I would not call Burke a facilitator on offense in any way. He's a ball dominant PG that does virtually nothing to make the players around him better. We get more out of rhythm and poor shots with Burke in the game that when he is not. That is why he was moved to the bench every bit as much as him being a poor defender was. I just can't see Burks being worse at that than Burke. I'm not a Burks homer, far from it I've been one of the most critical of him on here. But he's a better player than Burke, and I have no desire to watch our 4 best players watching Burke dominate the ball again this year when they should be the ones with the ball.

 

[fishonjazz]

Broncs killing it

 

[zman1527]

I cannot see using Burks over Neto or Cotton as PG. Don't force a square peg into a round hole. Can Burks do it? To some degree, but not well enough to get us far. At the very least I would think we would want Hood or Burks to lead the second unit.

 

[franklin]

I'd rather Burke or Burks not have the ball in short clock situations very often. The guy that should be doing that for this team is named Hayward more often than not. And frankly having Burke on the floor puts the team in those short clock situations more often than having him on the bench. Not only that but when in those short clock situations Burke doesn't give the ball to Hayward to make the play. He tries to do it himself and as you said does it poorly.
.
And I would not call Burke a facilitator on offense in any way. He's a ball dominant PG that does virtually nothing to make the players around him better. We get more out of rhythm and poor shots with Burke in the game that when he is not. That is why he was moved to the bench every bit as much as him being a poor defender was. I just can't see Burks being worse at that than Burke. I'm not a Burks homer, far from it I've been one of the most critical of him on here. But he's a better player than Burke, and I have no desire to watch our 4 best players watching Burke dominate the ball again this year when they should be the ones with the ball.

Complete strawman with no actual analysis of what Quin Snyder has installed as an offense.

Hayward and other players control the ball on the short end of the clock much much much more than Burke. He is the initiator, and sometimes the closer.

Does anyone on this site actually watch the Jazz anymore? Y'all's constant desire for a fall guy...

 

[franklin]

LessRun2pointguardlineup guyz!!!!XOXO

--JF circa 2009-10


CJMilesJestNeedMoreTimeYO!!!!XOXO

--JF/NAOS circa 2010-11


LessMillsapAtSmallForward!!!!XOXO


--JF/NAOS circa 2012


LessNoPointGuardGuyzBecauseTreyTheFallBoyWeDarfted9th!!!!XOXO

--JF/NAOS circa 2014-2015



Same **** different day.