Question about LDS Church after Smith's death.

[Stoked]

I'll answer both of you here.

1) I'm not giving more credence to Paul, I'm using Paul as evidence for how people misuse James.

2) Do you have to keep the commandments to be saved? If you're asking if I have to be perfect, the answer is no. Keeping the commandments is evidence that we have faith in God, evidence that we are saved. Outward, physical evidence. A man can have good works but no faith, and is he just as lost as the man who has faith but no works. Why? Because it is impossible to have true faith without being compelled by the HS to do works!

If you see a man that claims to follow God, claims to have faith, but his life hasn't been changed, then he is just like the Pharisees. That is why James says that faith without works is dead! If you have true faith, your life is impacted in such a way that you cannot help but want to follow God's commandments. What a wonderful gift. That is why Paul says that our works don't earn us anything, because 1) you can't earn salvation, and 2) our good works are compelled by our salvation.

You just described Mormon theology on grace and works.

 

[RandyForRubio]

There's a huge difference between saying you disagree with someone, and saying that that person/religion is not Christian. I'm fine with you saying you disagree with Catholicism. Or Mormonism, for that matter. But by any reasonable definition both Catholics and Mormons are still Christian.

I always find it interesting how Mormons include so many others in Christianity when Joseph Smith himself said that he has the only correct religion.

Anyways, Colton, I think you're a wonderful man. You're a good, kind and loving father. You're patient, yet firm. I truly enjoy our talks. Maybe that's why I've always been hesitant to say this, because I am afraid to offend you, but Paul tells us to speak with boldness, so I will. I cannot view a religion where the founding members were heretics who went against the Word of God as Christians. The religions are close, but they are so different at the same time. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and many others have been proven to be false prophets, and I do not view their words or their faith as being from God. You see, their works are also being judged.

 

[Stoked]

I always find it interesting how Mormons include so many others in Christianity when Joseph Smith himself said that he has the only correct religion.

Anyways, Colton, I think you're a wonderful man. You're a good, kind and loving father. You're patient, yet firm. I truly enjoy our talks. Maybe that's why I've always been hesitant to say this, because I am afraid to offend you, but Paul tells us to speak with boldness, so I will. I cannot view a religion where the founding members were heretics who went against the Word of God as Christians. The religions are close, but they are so different at the same time. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and many others have been proven to be false prophets, and I do not view their words or their faith as being from God. You see, their works are also being judged.

Those are not one and the same.

Straight up question. Do you consider Mother Teresa to be a Christian?

While she was not part of the Mormon religion I think she did her best to follow Christ. I'd call her a Christian. She lived a more Chirst like life then almost anyone I can name. Even if I think she had parts of it wrong.

I see your stance on Mormons not being Christians. Fine, you are entitled to it. I truly believe you have no more a claim to Christianity that Catholicsm Mormons, Lutherans, Baptists....

In short I think you are being very narrow minded and absolutely, 100% wrong. And you are still my friend. No hard feelings.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I always find it interesting how Mormons include so many others in Christianity when Joseph Smith himself said that he has the only correct religion.

Anyways, Colton, I think you're a wonderful man. You're a good, kind and loving father. You're patient, yet firm. I truly enjoy our talks. Maybe that's why I've always been hesitant to say this, because I am afraid to offend you, but Paul tells us to speak with boldness, so I will. I cannot view a religion where the founding members were heretics who went against the Word of God as Christians. The religions are close, but they are so different at the same time. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and many others have been proven to be false prophets, and I do not view their words or their faith as being from God. You see, their works are also being judged.

Just addressing the first line.

Imo a Christian is a person that believes in Christ as the Messiah, and who tries to the best of their ability to follow his teachings.

Believing that what I follow has the fullness of the Gospel doesn't really factor in to whether someone else believes in Christ and follows him as they see fit. It's okay is someone believes differently than I do, I can still love them and appreciate them for who they are, and recognize they are Christian despite having some different views on what that means.

Being a Christian is more about a belief in Christ than "being right".

/2cents

 

[RandyForRubio]

You just described Mormon theology on grace and works.

We'll have to agree to disagree. See, I believe that we are compelled through salvation to do good works. It's not of our own doing, it's through God.

Mormonism states: for we know that it is by grace we are saved after all we can do’

I believe that to be wrong. It is by grace that we are saved, through nothing that we did.

 

[RandyForRubio]

As for Mother Theresa...I have no idea. I have no clue what she believed doctrinally. I know that she didn't give out false prophecy. But as we've said, good works don't save a person. I would truly hope that she is saved, but I have no way of knowing. I'm not God.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

We'll have to agree to disagree. See, I believe that we are compelled through salvation to do good works. It's not of our own doing, it's through God.

Mormonism states: for we know that it is by grace we are saved after all we can do’

I believe that to be wrong. It is by grace that we are saved, through nothing that we did.

Are there any that are not saved?

 

[bigb]

It is by grace that we are saved, through nothing that we did.

According to this belief an unrepentant man who rapes and murders mentally handicapped children (is there any person on Earth less able to defend themself?) is saved because of Christ's grace, just because he believes in Christ. You'll have to forgive me for having a hard time accepting that.





Now I'll go back to secretly watching all this.

 

[Stoked]

As for Mother Theresa...I have no idea. I have no clue what she believed doctrinally. I know that she didn't give out false prophecy. But as we've said, good works don't save a person. I would truly hope that she is saved, but I have no way of knowing. I'm not God.

If you require a person to be 100% doctrinally sound than you cannot really know that you are a Christian.

If I were to say that you are not Christian (I think you are) then I am no more right or wrong than you are when you say that Mormons are not Christians. Luckily none of us get to decide who is or is not Christian. Thankfully I think we will all be surprised when we are judged and we see who is and who isn't.

As for grace and works. I truly this as arguing over nuances and not a true theological difference.

 

[colton]

1) I'm not giving more credence to Paul, I'm using Paul as evidence for how people misuse James.

That's funny--I was using James as evidence for how people misuse Paul. Go figure.

 

[♪alt13]

Naos was right. Howard is Hantlers.

 

[colton]

I always find it interesting how Mormons include so many others in Christianity when Joseph Smith himself said that he has the only correct religion.

Anyways, Colton, I think you're a wonderful man. You're a good, kind and loving father. You're patient, yet firm. I truly enjoy our talks.

Thanks. I do appreciate that.

Maybe that's why I've always been hesitant to say this, because I am afraid to offend you, but Paul tells us to speak with boldness, so I will. I cannot view a religion where the founding members were heretics who went against the Word of God as Christians. The religions are close, but they are so different at the same time. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and many others have been proven to be false prophets, and I do not view their words or their faith as being from God. You see, their works are also being judged.

Let's focus on me, then. Or on the other present-day Mormons in the thread. You seem to be saying that we are not Christians because we belong to a faith that has (in your opinion) questionable origins. But shouldn't we be evaluated based on our own beliefs and our actions? Do you consider me to be a Christian? If not, what's your definition of Christian?

 

[colton]

We'll have to agree to disagree. See, I believe that we are compelled through salvation to do good works. It's not of our own doing, it's through God.

Mormonism states: for we know that it is by grace we are saved after all we can do’

I believe that to be wrong. It is by grace that we are saved, through nothing that we did.

I believe your understanding of Mormon belief to be wrong. You're objecting to a straw man that no LDS poster in this thread has agreed with.

Would it help if we reversed the sentence? For we know that after all we can do it is by grace we are saved. Same exact sentence, but maybe reversing the clauses will help you understand the LDS view better. I also refer you to this talk by Pres. Uchtdorf from just a few months ago: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng

 

[BENTLEY]

1380's... straight from John's mouth and Paul's right. Bada bam bada boom

Just because the translation into English happened 1200+ years after the original Greek, doesn't alter the original Greek. Do you understand? Length of time doesn't alter the original greek NT.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Just addressing the first line.

Imo a Christian is a person that believes in Christ as the Messiah, and who tries to the best of their ability to follow his teachings.

This would by definition make Muslims Christian as well. Might need to fine-tune this definition.

Isa Ibn Maryam (Arabic: عيسى بن مريم, translit.: ʿĪsā ibn Maryām; English: Jesus, son of Mary), or Jesus in the New Testament, is considered to be a Messenger of God and al-Masih (the Messiah) in Islam[1][2]:30 who was sent to guide the Children of Israel (banī isrā'īl) with a new scripture, al-Injīl (the Gospel).[3] The belief that Jesus is a prophet is required in Islam. This is reflected in the fact that he is clearly a significant figure in the Quran, appearing in 93 ayaat (or verses), though Noah, Adam and Moses appear with even greater frequency.[4] It states that Jesus was born to Mary (Arabic: Maryam) as the result of virginal conception, a miraculous event which occurred by the decree of God his Creator (Arabic: Allah). To aid in his ministry to the Jewish people, Jesus was given the ability to perform miracles (such as healing the blind, bringing the dead back to life, etc.) which no other prophet in Islam has ever been credited with, all by the permission of God rather than of his own power. According to the Quran, Jesus, although appearing to have been crucified, was not killed by crucifixion or by any other means; instead, "God raised him unto Himself". In the 19th Sura of the Quran (verse 33), Jesus says "And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive.", which clearly declares that Jesus will experience a natural death, and will be raised again on the day of judgment.

Anywho. Carry on, gentiles.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

This would by definition make Muslims Christian as well. Might need to fine-tune this definition.

Anywho. Carry on, gentlemen.

I thought about being more clear.

The Messiah (as described and promised in the Old Testament)
The Savior
The Son of God
The Lord Jesus Christ
Emmanuel

I could go on, sorry I wasn't super clear.

 

[BENTLEY]

Fine! I was baptized and saved.

Now I can go out rob, lie, steal, commit adultry and drink to my hearts content. I am already saved.

Romans 3:31 “Do we then make void the law through faith? God Forbid: Yea, We Establish the Law.” Every born-again believer is obligated to obey and fulfill the law, NOT to be saved, but because WE ARE saved. I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense. If you truly believe this I recommend a re-reading of the New Testament. Can't hurt.

Do believers have a license to sin? Well, let me put it this way: Our salvation rests upon the redeeming work of Jesus Christ, and not upon our own self-righteousness. However, no believer has God's permission to sin and Hebrews 12:6-8 promises that God will chastise his children who do live in sin. No genuine believer can live in sin and truly be happy, because the Holy Spirit of God will convict the soul. Nevertheless, our salvation is not conditional upon our works, good or bad. Salvation is the unconditional gift of God—the penalty for sin has been paid for by Jesus' redeeming blood. "IT IS FINISHED."

 

[BENTLEY]

There's a huge difference between saying you disagree with someone, and saying that that person/religion is not Christian. I'm fine with you saying you disagree with Catholicism. Or Mormonism, for that matter. But by any reasonable definition both Catholics and Mormons are still Christian.

Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 1, p. xl: "Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 270: "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world"

John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 225: "What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing... Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God."

The LDS church today keeps saying "we're Christian" because "Jesus Christ" is in the title of their church. But Joseph Smith never identified with the "Christians," but rather demonized them (as did succeeding Presidents of the church). https://mormonthink.com/QUOTES/christianity.htm

Jesus told his followers that many would come in His NAME, but be ye not deceived. Just because someone claims to be Christian doesn't make it so. God either knows you or He doesn't. But "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?"
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who work iniquity.'"

This whole who is a Christian thing is tricky because of all the different splinters within Christianity, not to mention the actual wolves in sheep's clothing Jesus warned of (Rome declared it was Christian and became "Holy" Roman, but then taught things that weren't in scripture - and wouldn't let anyone have a Bible in their own language so people couldn't check how wrong the Catholic leadership were). Now, I believe that there could be true Christians within Catholicism (they may have been born into it and it was their only avenue of knowing Jesus). I was born into mormonism, and I learned about Jesus there. Some of it was true. Some of it was not. But luckily the truth outweighed the lies and pulled me out of mormonism. Mormonism today is very nice - they're nice people, who try to be good. But the roots, in spite of the propaganda we grew up with, are not good. The roots of Catholicism are Rome and its fruits are the inquisition and the crusades. And now we have people who point to the crusades and say "that's why I'm not a Christian" because they only see the surface. There are people who are evil, or blinded by lies, everywhere. The world is full of sinners and hypocrites, even with in Christ's body of believers. But our salvation is already paid for on the cross and when we admit we are sinners and hypocrites, when we admit our pride and are truly humble and penitent and desperate, as vile as He has declared us to be in His holy Word - it is then we are saved by His grace.

I would imagine if Mormons were around in Paul's day (humor me) then he would've writen a stern letter to the Mormon sect, correcting their false teachings, as he did with the Galatians or Ephesians, etc. But Mormonism teaches with certainty - with pride - that they're the only true Christian sect on the face of the earth. And they refuse to be corrected. This statement made in sacrament meetings everywhere is not a statement of faith, but rather a statement of pride. I sympathize with my mormon brothers and sisters' love of Christ, but I don't excuse their pride. That's on me. I'll try to be more understanding and patient, because He wants me to be. But my salvation is not dependent on my actions.


Go Jazz!

Anyway, you might be unaware that the LDS church also teaches that we are saved by grace. We are also judged by our works. And if your works are evil, Christ's grace won't save you.

If you believe this will you please provide a scripture as support for this claim. Try Galatians. In fact, to all my fellow Jazzfanz who are wondering about this salvation by works vs. grace debate, I recommend Galatians. Although Paul addresses it in other epistles as well.

 

[BENTLEY]

Amen to that. That's why we're wondering why you're giving more credence to Paul's epistles than to James, Matthew, Revelation, etc.

What is the conflict between these scripture. James is not in conflict with Paul. James, as has been addressed in an earlier post, is addressing those Christians who feel that since they're saved they don't have to be good anymore - so James says their faith (without works) is dead. Works are a byproduct of faith. If you don't have good works, well, then you probably weren't truly faithful. But James doesn't say anyone is saved by their works. Our works = "filthy rags."

 

[BENTLEY]

I like the faith side of the coin over the works side. It is a lower standard. If you are saved by faith alone and there is no requirement for any works, just those you feel like doing, that is a lot easier than holding yourself to a certain standard of behavior all the freaking time. Less to repent for. Less reason to feel guilty. Less stuff to worry about.

His yoke is easy, His burden is light.