Racism and privilege

[LogGrad98]

I'm urging all people to recognize that they are products of their culture, that they share in the cognitive shortcuts and assumptions passed onto them by the culture, and that simply ignoring/denying the existence of these shortcuts means they perpetuate the shortcuts, even if they do not intend to do so. Intent is not relevant, behavior is. In particular, guilt is meaningless. inless it motivates change.

You are the one who equates the unequal playing field with "hopeless". There will always be indivuiduals who can clear the bar, even when it is set higher for them. Discrimintion against blacks in employment, STEM disciplines, etc. doesn't mean no blacks are employed nor that none work it STEM. It means that some of them are turned away, or accept lesser positions and opportunities. Denying this sort of victimization does not make it go away.

What does make it go away? You have done a lot of pontificating about the problem, and how no one approaches it correctly. People say that when we no longer recognize race it will show the problem is improving, you say it means we are just ignoring it. People say it starts with the individual, you say that it doesn't. You have done a lot of defining and cutting down other viewpoints as being wrong or incomplete, yet have put forth nothing in terms of solutions. Yes, there is a problem. WHAT DO WE ALL HAVE TO DO TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM?

What is the next goal. Spazz pointed out an idealized goal you said was wrong to focus on, yet when asked what the in-between goals are you provide nothing. What exactly are you trying to get at in this thread? Is it sufficient to you to get us all to acknowledge that we are all privileged because we might be white? Ok, we are privileged. You say that " some of them are turned away, or accept lesser positions and opportunities", does that mean to be no longer racists that no one can ever be turned away or accept a lesser position? I have taken a nearly 30% reduction in my pay, and a "lesser" position due to the economy and a major lay-off nearly 5 years ago now. What does that say?

Is it possible some people of color may not be as qualified as some white people, or at least within a given candidate pool, and therefore they do not get chosen? I am not asking you to pontificate about how we are ignoring the problem and all the crap you have been saying through the whole thread, but please just answer the question. Is it POSSIBLE that maybe SOMETIMES the reason someone has to accept a lower position is that they are not as qualified as some other candidate? Or does that idea that maybe qualifications do not rely on race mean that I am just perpetuating the white privilege and somehow ignoring the problem yet again?

If I post a position for a supervisor (which I have open in my facility right now), and I get 50 applicants (I am close to 30 now), and of them 5 are of color, and the rest are white, wouldn't logic and probability dictate that the likelihood of one of the 5 of color being more qualified than all of the other 45 white people is not very high? The probability from the numbers alone would say that I am more likely to find the most highly qualified candidate among the group with the most applicants, considering they all know the parameters of the position and share some level of commonality in their backgrounds or they wouldn't have applied. But if I pick the person I think is most highly qualified, and he happens to be white (and male even), then I am really being biased due to race yet again due to the "cognitive shortcuts and assumptions" that I cannot be free of since I am a "product of my culture".

You are talking in circles and getting no where. So make it simple:

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?

 

[moevillini]

...Yes, there is a problem. WHAT DO WE ALL HAVE TO DO TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM?...



...You are talking in circles and getting no where. So make it simple:

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?

TRY THIS:

Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism.
Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.
“”
Max Ehrmann, "Desiderata"


words to live by

 

[franklin]

What does make it go away? You have done a lot of pontificating about the problem, and how no one approaches it correctly. People say that when we no longer recognize race it will show the problem is improving, you say it means we are just ignoring it. People say it starts with the individual, you say that it doesn't. You have done a lot of defining and cutting down other viewpoints as being wrong or incomplete, yet have put forth nothing in terms of solutions. Yes, there is a problem. WHAT DO WE ALL HAVE TO DO TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM?

What is the next goal. Spazz pointed out an idealized goal you said was wrong to focus on, yet when asked what the in-between goals are you provide nothing. What exactly are you trying to get at in this thread? Is it sufficient to you to get us all to acknowledge that we are all privileged because we might be white? Ok, we are privileged. You say that " some of them are turned away, or accept lesser positions and opportunities", does that mean to be no longer racists that no one can ever be turned away or accept a lesser position? I have taken a nearly 30% reduction in my pay, and a "lesser" position due to the economy and a major lay-off nearly 5 years ago now. What does that say?

Is it possible some people of color may not be as qualified as some white people, or at least within a given candidate pool, and therefore they do not get chosen? I am not asking you to pontificate about how we are ignoring the problem and all the crap you have been saying through the whole thread, but please just answer the question. Is it POSSIBLE that maybe SOMETIMES the reason someone has to accept a lower position is that they are not as qualified as some other candidate? Or does that idea that maybe qualifications do not rely on race mean that I am just perpetuating the white privilege and somehow ignoring the problem yet again?

If I post a position for a supervisor (which I have open in my facility right now), and I get 50 applicants (I am close to 30 now), and of them 5 are of color, and the rest are white, wouldn't logic and probability dictate that the likelihood of one of the 5 of color being more qualified than all of the other 45 white people is not very high? The probability from the numbers alone would say that I am more likely to find the most highly qualified candidate among the group with the most applicants, considering they all know the parameters of the position and share some level of commonality in their backgrounds or they wouldn't have applied. But if I pick the person I think is most highly qualified, and he happens to be white (and male even), then I am really being biased due to race yet again due to the "cognitive shortcuts and assumptions" that I cannot be free of since I am a "product of my culture".

You are talking in circles and getting no where. So make it simple:

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?

The black population assimilating into white culture is the easiest answer. I have a hard time blaming people for wanting to be around those they are comfortable with. Cultural differences aren't limited to skin color. For example, I wouldn't hire someone with prison mentality who's always in fight mode every time someone "disrespects" him due to some contorted set of rules he lived by behind bars and inside biker bars.

But since that's not a reasonable or fair expectation...

 

[LogGrad98]

The black population assimilating into white culture is the easiest answer. I have a hard time blaming people for wanting to be around those they are comfortable with. Cultural differences aren't limited to skin color. For example, I wouldn't hire someone with prison mentality who's always in fight mode every time someone "disrespects" him due to some contorted set of rules he lived by behind bars and inside biker bars.

But since that's not a reasonable or fair expectation...

But see this all ties back to white privilege. The guy wouldn't have been in that situation if it wasn't for profiling, so we created this guy, so we owe him the leeway to get his life going again, and we are required to accept his biker/gang "culture" as part of diversity so we do not perpetuate the victimization that was the ultimate cause of this person's getting involved in prison life to begin with.


Hmm, not sure I got that right. I tired to re-word some of the rhetoric in that context. Was that about right?






Btw did anyone notice that franklin never identified his example of a biker person as being black? I went that way to see how many catch it and jump on the merry-go-round again.





Or is it just an example of the perpetuation of racism forced on my by the culture I grew up in, which means I am destined to be racist no matter how much I try to "pretend" I'm not, and this instance is really just a reflection of our predisposition of white privilege which we can never escape?

 

[franklin]

But see this all ties back to white privilege. The guy wouldn't have been in that situation if it wasn't for profiling, so we created this guy, so we owe him the leeway to get his life going again, and we are required to accept his biker/gang "culture" as part of diversity so we do not perpetuate the victimization that was the ultimate cause of this person's getting involved in prison life to begin with.


Hmm, not sure I got that right. I tired to re-word some of the rhetoric in that context. Was that about right?






Btw did anyone notice that franklin never identified his example of a biker person as being black? I went that way to see how many catch it and jump on the merry-go-round again.





Or is it just an example of the perpetuation of racism forced on my by the culture I grew up in, which means I am destined to be racist no matter how much I try to "pretend" I'm not, and this instance is really just a reflection of our predisposition of white privilege which we can never escape?

Sneaky you.

The difference with the current situation with blacks is that we directly caused generational poverty with racism, and now we have a deeply rooted problem that can't be addressed by hacking at leaves with Spazz's lead by Christianity, or with this affirmative action pity party, or with Stoked's don't talk about it and it will go away m.o. We need a targeted national policy or targeted state policies to deal with our structural issues. I'm convinced it's a jobs/skills problem and nothing more. Cure the generational problem and we don't really need to worry if manager Joe white guy won't hire blackey or manager angry lady only promotes women or manager DeSean black guy has a chip on his shoulder or manager flamboyant gay guy only hires LGBT or manager tattoo only highers ex-cons.

My bottom line is the black culture is not in a position to not give a damn if someone won't hire them because of bigotry. Many of the rest of us are.

 

[♪alt13]

Intent is not relevant, behavior is.
This proves to me just how little you understand about the world.
Discrimintion against blacks in employment, STEM disciplines, etc. doesn't mean no blacks are employed nor that none work it STEM. It means that some of them are turned away, or accept lesser positions and opportunities. Denying this sort of victimization does not make it go away.
I actually acknowledged this(you have been ignoring me). Again. You have no "call to action". Instead you dish out self important revelations in an effort to try and prove to yourself that you are as smart as your mommy said you were.


My recommendation is that when you bring King up, you need to keep in mind that you have a much smaller share in the experiences that informed King than many others have, and so your understanding of King is lacking in that regard. I have no problem with you saying what King inspires in you. However, you were trying to tell me what King meant as a corrective to my view. There are a few posters in here that seem knowledgeable enough that I would take such a corrective seriously. You're not one of them. You obviously lack the experiences and just as obviously have not attempted any serious study of the issue.

You know nothing of my life experiences and I of yours, however I doubt you are a person that should be lecturing me on limited life experiences. Have you ever been to jail? Have you ever stood in front of a judge and asked for your release? Have you ever been homeless?
Do you live in a dorm. Do you pat yourself on the back for not being afraid of your black dorm mates? If you see a young minority male do you preemptively cross the street or do you say good evening. I could be way off base here but I don't think you really give a **** you just want every other white person to feel as guilty as you.(If your not white than kudus to you. You really pull off the liberal white douche bag, mask well)

I have not ignored what you say, but I take it as seriously as I do the notion that the earth is flat and supported on the back of a turtle. Before I can work with you to make things better, you have to be able to see what's wrong. Why should I work with you on solutions when you don't even see the real problem?
People that don't respect your superiority, right?

It's odd how you can agree with VinylOne and disagree with me, when we are basically saying the same thing, perhaps with a slightly different emphasis.

Yes one acknowledges the problem, the other confuses cause and effect.


Ps I used to use my intellect to boost my self esteem. It is a lonely path, bro. I suggest you give it up.

 

[One Brow]

Then perhaps you should compare the differences in your approach and language use.

So I should be disappointed that VinylOne is so accommodating to your privilege?

 

[One Brow]

While I agree that government is properly empowered to regulate "behavior" or actions that impose some impediment on the rights and liberties of citizens, if what OB says is true we don't actually need the word "racism" in specifying which behaviors are injurious to others in either their person, their possessions, or their rights.

I'm still waiting for the board to come up with better term for the description of the widespread cultural behaviors that systemically affect people of particular ancestry negatively. Eliminating the usage of such a word is simply hiding the effect.

If we go on prattling about "racism" and attaching to that word the intent to treat some class of persons injuriously, we can hardly do so without applying that label to another class of persons and attaching a hate label, or maybe even criminalizing them for being what they are. . . . based on their intentions.

There is no crime based on intentions. There is a system of increases penalties based on intentions, applied when crimes are directed not just against an individual, but as a warning to other members of that group.

 

[One Brow]

What does make it go away? You have done a lot of pontificating about the problem, and how no one approaches it correctly. People say that when we no longer recognize race it will show the problem is improving, you say it means we are just ignoring it. People say it starts with the individual, you say that it doesn't. You have done a lot of defining and cutting down other viewpoints as being wrong or incomplete, yet have put forth nothing in terms of solutions. Yes, there is a problem. WHAT DO WE ALL HAVE TO DO TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM?

Nothing makes it go away, but we can each remember it in our life. Problems of culture require a change of culture, and that means, on an individual level, we have to be counter-cultural. I'm not going o tell you tat you have to hire one of the 5 black people over one of the 45 white applicants. I'm asking you to keep in mind that your perception of those 50 applicants, of whatever race or ethnicity, is going to be altered by the stream of depictions in media, in locker-room jokes, casual asides, etc. you have been hearing for 40+ years. You've been trained to have a more positive reaction to the white applicants and a more negative one to the black applicants. Remember that when you make a decision.

 

[One Brow]

Cultural differences aren't limited to skin color. For example, I wouldn't hire someone with prison mentality who's always in fight mode every time someone "disrespects" him due to some contorted set of rules he lived by behind bars and inside biker bars.

But since that's not a reasonable or fair expectation...

First, I would think that reactions learned as an adult can be unlearned as an adult. So while I agree the mindset would be problematic, it would be a mistake to assume all former bikers/ prisoners possess it.

 

[One Brow]

But see this all ties back to white privilege. The guy wouldn't have been in that situation if it wasn't for profiling, so we created this guy, so we owe him the leeway to get his life going again, and we are required to accept his biker/gang "culture" as part of diversity so we do not perpetuate the victimization that was the ultimate cause of this person's getting involved in prison life to begin with.


Hmm, not sure I got that right. I tired to re-word some of the rhetoric in that context. Was that about right?


Btw did anyone notice that franklin never identified his example of a biker person as being black? I went that way to see how many catch it and jump on the merry-go-round again.

Or is it just an example of the perpetuation of racism forced on my by the culture I grew up in, which means I am destined to be racist no matter how much I try to "pretend" I'm not, and this instance is really just a reflection of our predisposition of white privilege which we can never escape?

You understand enough to realize that the culture has taught us to associate criminality and untrustworthiness with black people. Do you accept you have been taught this along with every other American, and that it does place an influence on how you react to people?

As a human, we are all destined to use cognitive short-cutting in our evaluations. In our culture, part of the training for the short-cuts includes judgments based on perceived ancestry. As long as we are human, we can indeed do nothing to change that, but we can recognize it, and do a small part to trying to counter the culture.

 

[franklin]

First, I would think that reactions learned as an adult can be unlearned as an adult. So while I agree the mindset would be problematic, it would be a mistake to assume all former bikers/ prisoners possess it.

The point was about individual characteristics that make others feel uncomfortable, not about stereotyping based on a defined history. Most Americans are not racist. We, being humans and all, are uncomfortable with certain cultural characteristics. Racism is about culture, not race.

 

[One Brow]

This proves to me just how little you understand about the world.

On the contrary, your response displays ignorance. I done care if I get hired or not because of active prejudice about my race, slight discomfort regarding, or just the notion that I would or would not "fit in". I just want the job.

I actually acknowledged this(you have been ignoring me).

Then stop saying I making victims when there are actual victims.

Again. You have no "call to action". Instead you dish out self important revelations in an effort to try and prove to yourself that you are as smart as your mommy said you were.

I don't need to prove I'm smart, and don't particularly care about how smart others think I am.

You know nothing of my life experiences and I of yours, however I doubt you are a person that should be lecturing me on limited life experiences. Have you ever been to jail? Have you ever stood in front of a judge and asked for your release? Have you ever been homeless?

Yes. No. No.

Do you live in a dorm. Do you pat yourself on the back for not being afraid of your black dorm mates? If you see a young minority male do you preemptively cross the street or do you say good evening.

No. No. Generally, I'm more likely to cross the street if the male in question in white.

I could be way off base here but I don't think you really give a **** you just want every other white person to feel as guilty as you.(If your not white than kudus to you. You really pull off the liberal white douche bag, mask well)

A student always appreciates compliments from a master.

People that don't respect your superiority, right?

Your question had nothing to do with what I said.

Yes one acknowledges the problem, the other confuses cause and effect.

By all means, tell me "the problem" VinylOne acknowledged, and the cause an effect I confused. I have an assumption, but frankly, that assumption would be a very poor reflection on you, so I am treating my assumption as incorrect for time being.

Ps I used to use my intellect to boost my self esteem. It is a lonely path, bro. I suggest you give it up.

I've never gotten a self-esteem boost from intellect. I've never seen intellect as a character trait to esteem.

 

[One Brow]

The point was about individual characteristics that make others feel uncomfortable, not about stereotyping based on a defined history. Most Americans are not racist. We, being humans and all, are uncomfortable with certain cultural characteristics. Racism is about culture, not race.

If you change the one sentence to "Most Americans are not racially bigoted", I would agree with that completely.

There are many places you can learn to react to any type of disrespect with anger/violence, including in a two-parent household, and I agree that would make many sorts of jobs difficult to hold.

 

[franklin]

You understand enough to realize that the culture has taught us to associate criminality and untrustworthiness with black people.

I do not think this is true in the modern world.

When we speak of US culture we tend to forget the fractured regional nature of our combined culture and take the median as if it's the rule rather than a group of varying exceptions. I work with several Eastern Coasters who can be very racist in a different way than the Utah native racists I work with who are different than the characteristically Southern not so racist white people I work with.

In Utah, I suspect this affirmative action pity party is overshadowed by our seeking acceptance from "cool" African Americans. See, we don't have many blackies up in here, and we racially we view them as overly cool as hell, so we are very likely to hire us-selves a token black guy hoping to get an in with the fun crowd. Hiring way too many black people is the real issue in Utah.

 

[LogGrad98]

I do not think this is true in the modern world.

When we speak of US culture we tend to forget the fractured regional nature of our combined culture and take the median as if it's the rule rather than a group of varying exceptions. I work with several Eastern Coasters who can be very racist in a different way than the Utah native racists I work with who are different than the characteristically Southern not so racist white people I work with.

In Utah, I suspect this affirmative action pity party is overshadowed by our seeking acceptance from "cool" African Americans. See, we don't have many blackies up in here, and we racially we view them as overly cool as hell, so we are very likely to hire us-selves a token black guy hoping to get an in with the fun crowd. Hiring way too many black people is the real issue in Utah.

Hence the STD crew and their ilk. Wanna-be blackies.

 

[moevillini]

Seems there are some lements of truth up there

 

[moevillini]

So I wonder what it means that I notice and react to a person's overall demeanor far more than I notice and react to their skin tone. Not sure if there's a word for that or not.

 

[LogGrad98]

So I wonder what it means that I notice and react to a person's overall demeanor far more than I notice and react to their skin tone. Not sure if there's a word for that or not.

Humanist?

 

[One Brow]

In Utah, I suspect this affirmative action pity party is overshadowed by our seeking acceptance from "cool" African Americans. See, we don't have many blackies up in here, and we racially we view them as overly cool as hell, so we are very likely to hire us-selves a token black guy hoping to get an in with the fun crowd. Hiring way too many black people is the real issue in Utah.

https://www.bls.gov/lau/table14full10.pdf

Scroll down to Utah, and you can see that white unemployment is 8.1%, black is 11.4%. Now, the difference is smaller than in many states with a larger black population, but I wish I was more surprised that you felt having over 3% more unemployment among black people was "Hiring way too many black people".