Racism and privilege

[Jazz Spazz]

And what do you do when there are ten gazillion bad examples and scant few good by examples? The lack of your solution is very much part of perpetuating problems. How do you change that?

You can't make people change if they don't want to. If there are ten gazillion bad examples you treat it the same way people talk about eating an elephant. It sounds like a lot to eat, but you do it one bite at a time. You set a good example and influence one person at a time.

It absolutely is not a lack of a solution, it is the solution if people are willing. Did Ghandi make people do things his way. Did Mother Theresa force people think she was great and follow the way she lives? Did Christ force people to follow him? This is not about forcing people to think the way you think and act the way you want them to act because you are smart and right... even if you are. Pure principles and truth are things that can change the way people think and then change the way people act. Laws do not change the way people think or who they are, but they can influence the way people act only out of fear or some other motivation. Nate does not think mary jane is bad because there are laws against it. Making a law, or attempting to force people to act a certain way will not solve the problem.

It is not the band aid that heals a wound or scratch. It is merely a tool that may or may not help. It is still the body that heals itself.

It is not a law that changes the behavior of society. It is a tool that may or may not help. It is still each individual as part of society that chooses who they are and how they want to act.

You want to actually change the way people think and act... you have to change them deep inside. It does not happen with criticism. Most or all people take longer to change a given action when that action is criticized. If that person is shown a better way, and encouraged, positive change seems to happen faster and in a more complete manner.

Again, franklin this is not a lack of a solution. It is a real solution, and the difficulty lies in the fact that any real solution takes time, effort and work that most people have no desire to put in. It is like a giant game of tag where once someone is tagged they help to tag the remaining people. It seems daunting but it can go fast of everyone gets involved. I agree that ignoring issues does not help them, but dwelling on them and criticizing does even more damage imho.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I had black roommates in college.


£¥£ Retiring at 20,000 £¥£

Did you ever manage to measure their hands, for Hack?

 

[Hotdog]

Did you ever manage to measure their hands, for Hack?

Its not for me, its for a friend.

 

[Gameface]

Did you ever manage to measure their hands, for Hack?

I heard they didn't have a big enough ruler.

 

[Stoked]

You said to stop talking about race. It's hard to do that when race matters to you. Or when you're getting the short end of the stick.

All I can say is thank the dear Lord I don't view the world the way you do.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I absolutely disagree. focusing on race is the problem. only when it is truly irrelevant will it no longer be a problem.

We are not nearly close enough to that goal to stop talking about it. Not nearly close enough.

 

[NUMBERICA]

This is a completely untrue conflation

Is there anything I can say to defend myself and my own virtues when someone is intent on discrediting me for having white privilege (even though/especially because racial or gender privilege is real)?

It's sloppy, and I generally don't find it productive.

 

[Nate505]

Ahh white liberal guilt...it's like a little taste of growing up back in the Bay Area.

Now I just need the smell of incense and being dragged to sufi dancing to really drive those childhood memories home.

 

[Nate505]

I'm not sure that things are really getting better for the majority of "black" Americans, even though there certainly are opportunities for some.

Is there any sort of metric for "better"? Since I doubt there is it's quite hard to make an objective claim on something extremely subjective.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Is there any sort of metric for "better"?

Average income? % of population above the poverty line? % of population currently insured? % of population incarcerated? Mortality rate? Life expectancy? An actual comparison study on rates of depression?

And I don't have the data but I could probably get some if I wasn't about to go to bed.

 

[Nate505]

I'm sure there are a ton of statistics you can look at, but considering that most are influenced by a ton of variables I'm not sure you can point to any of them (one way or the other) and say "it's getting better for you guys" without knowing which variable is the primary factor of the increase (or decrease).

Such as unemployment among blacks. It's probably got worse since the late 90s, but that's probably more due to a weakened economy and outsourcing and manufacturing jobs being lost in this country and a host of other things than some hidden racism in society, though the racism part could have something to do with it too (maybe in this case that if there are fewer jobs out there in the job pool that lower educated workers get screwed more and that institutional racism, and again other factors, have made education poorer in predominantly black communities).

 

[Deleted member 848]

All I can say is thank the dear Lord I don't view the world the way you do.

Lol wut

We are not nearly close enough to that goal to stop talking about it. Not nearly close enough.

I think you're right, and I think Stoked isn't getting it. We are in no way close to ending racism. I was subjected to racism as a kid, and I once contemplated changing schools to an inner-city one full of Muslims like myself. And we're talking about Edmonton, Canada here. Absolute multicultural soup of a city-- with a country that stresses acceptance and multiculturalism.

Who knows what goes on in the likes of Indiana, Ohio, even Utah.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I'm sure there are a ton of statistics you can look at, but considering that most are influenced by a ton of variables I'm not sure you can point to any of them (one way or the other) and say "it's getting better for you guys" without knowing which variable is the primary factor of the increase (or decrease).

Such as unemployment among blacks. It's probably got worse since the late 90s, but that's probably more due to a weakened economy and outsourcing and manufacturing jobs being lost in this country and a host of other things than some hidden racism in society, though the racism part could have something to do with it too (maybe in this case that if there are fewer jobs out there in the job pool that lower educated workers get screwed more and that institutional racism, and again other factors, have made education poorer in predominantly black communities).

I think it is incorrect to say that blacks are lagging behind because of current racism. However, it is a well-supported argument that blacks might be lagging behind because of past-racism-- and I think it is dishonest to think that racism in modern America has not hindered any person anywhere within North America.



And quite frankly-- as long as this hindrance exists, then racism deserves to be brought up in conversation. In fact-- I think one of the reasons why Stoked's 'growing trend of less racism' exists, is because people have publicized how wrong it is. What would have happened if we had just tried to ignore it for several centuries, and pretend it was nothing? In a vacuum, it makes sense. In practice, it doesn't.




My $0.02

 

[Deleted member 848]

I don't know who shoved a stick up your arse, but I'm 30. To me, university students are kids.

Amen to that. My mom still does my laundry

*confirmed*

 

[ema]

It is still one of the major problems in the world globally. Especially in Europe and Far East, racism, discrimination and oppression against minorities are huge problems. (Despite the strict laws in Europe)

 

[Stoked]

We are not nearly close enough to that goal to stop talking about it. Not nearly close enough.

I agree that we are not close but that is still the goal is it not?

Edit: I misread it your post originally. I agree we are not close enough. We will not be close enough until it is gone. I am not advocating ignoring racism. That is purely a fabrication of Jimles. I am saying that when it no longer matter then we have gotten somewhere. That when a person looks at some one they dont see a white guy or a latina woman. They just see a man or woman.

That has nothing to do with accepting or ignoring your own culture. Be proud of who you are and where you come from. Your story is unique and should be cherished and shared.

 

[Stoked]

Lol wut




I think you're right, and I think Stoked isn't getting it. We are in no way close to ending racism. I was subjected to racism as a kid, and I once contemplated changing schools to an inner-city one full of Muslims like myself. And we're talking about Edmonton, Canada here. Absolute multicultural soup of a city-- with a country that stresses acceptance and multiculturalism.

Who knows what goes on in the likes of Indiana, Ohio, even Utah.

Oh so because we are not close to it we are not supposed to talk about it and to acknowledge prgress? Foolishness. Talk about ignoring the issue.

Only when people look at a person and see only that person and not their skint one will this problem be solved.

I do appreciate you all proving my point though. A white, non liberal guy from Utah said something provocative and honest about race. It could be taken two ways. One of them insensitive and bad. So that HAD to be it. There is no way that a non card carying liberal could mean anything different when it comes to race.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Oh so because we are not close to it we are not supposed to talk about it and to acknowledge prgress? Foolishness. Talk about ignoring the issue.

Only when people look at a person and see only that person and not their skint one will this problem be solved.

I do appreciate you all proving my point though. A white, non liberal guy from Utah said something provocative and honest about race. It could be taken two ways. One of them insensitive and bad. So that HAD to be it. There is no way that a non card carying liberal could mean anything different when it comes to race.

I don't think you're being insensitive at all, actually. Rather, I think you're approaching with an idealistic view that simply wouldn't hold in our current society. Thus, alternate approaches, along with approaches that have worked up until now, should take precedence

 

[Stoked]

I don't think you're being insensitive at all, actually. Rather, I think you're approaching with an idealistic view that simply wouldn't hold in our current society. Thus, alternate approaches, along with approaches that have worked up until now, should take precedence

Depends on the person, I think some of us are already there. As a society? Clearly not. As has been stated there is much work to be done. But I was talking about a goal now wasn't I.

 

[One Brow]

In the moments that correspond to you making this post, you are acting racist.

Does that cover some of your opinion of racism? Were you posting this as an example?

Since racism is a power structure built on differential treatment, and I have no effect on the treatment of Stoked, nor any ability to alter the power structures around his life, my comment can not be racist, regardless of what prejudice might be behind it. However, thanks for playing the "only racists talk about racism" card. I haven't seen that since the last thread on this topic.