Racism and privilege

[Stoked]

I'm glad you agree.

I'm glad you are carrying all my racial guilt for me. The liberation!

 

[♪alt13]

@ OB

How did you become a Jazz fan? Are you originally from St. Louis?

I ask because I have always thought that the West, Midwest, Northeast, and South are incredibly different. I wonder if part of the reason why you see things from a different perspective comes from living where you do.

I for one haven't met a person from east of Colorado that I feel like I truly understand. From our perspective you guys out there live in a different kind of world. A world that to us looks like it is more influenced by fear and therefore hate.

 

[LogGrad98]

Humans are very bad judges of when they are treating different people equally.

However, thanks for pulling out the "I've got black friends" patter and "why should I oppress white people" whine. That really clarifies things.

Well all we have is our judgement, what else are we supposed to use, your judgement? Should we set up a committee and have everyone's racism status verified and published or something so we all know how we are doing? You have been going in circles so much it seems like you are arguing this just to argue it and not to get to any point. We all are racist, there is nothing we can do about that, but we are terrible judges of how racist we are, but we shouldn't be racist, but we are no matter how hard we try, and there is no way to know when we are and when we aren't since we are such terrible judges of when we are being racist or not, but we shouldn't be racist, and every effort we make to be racist is wrong because we have no way to accurately judge when we are being racist or not. This is a severely useless discussion, since you have a blanket statement of "well you can't know when you are and when you aren't so you just always are whether you want to be or not and no matter how hard you try you always will be" so you can ignore valid arguments (still haven't addressed whether or not we should be concerned about valid convictions, just twisted it around that we can't know what we don't know blah blah blah again) and I am guessing feel superior since you can thwart everyone's attempts to get to a valid point or conclusion other than "you are, always have been, and always will be racist".

I guess, as usual, we can agree to disagree. You can keep worrying about always being a privileged white racist with no means or hope of ever changing, and I will continue playing basketball and having barbecues with my black friends and talking about issues that matter to them (and me) and do my best with my permanently flawed racial judgement to be a little less racist each day.

Cheers!

 

[Gameface]

@ OB

How did you become a Jazz fan? Are you originally from St. Louis?

I ask because I have always thought that the West, Midwest, Northeast, and South are incredibly different. I wonder if part of the reason why you see things from a different perspective comes from living where you do.

I for one haven't met a person from east of Colorado that I feel like I truly understand. From our perspective you guys out there live in a different kind of world. A world that to us looks like it is more influenced by fear and therefore hate.

From my time in the Navy my interaction out in public east of the Mississippi typically left me wanting to punch people in the face for their bad manners. I suppose to them I was a rube who went around expecting people to act decently.

 

[♪alt13]

From my time in the Navy my interaction out in public east of the Mississippi typically left me wanting to punch people in the face for their bad manners. I suppose to them I was a rube who went around expecting people to act decently.

I really think that it isn't that they are acting indecent or without manners, it's just that those words mean different things to them. Take the word respect. Out here respect seems to mean live and let live where as out east it seems to mean to acknowledge someones worth. It's just a different perspective.

 

[moevillini]

Ok well now let's not lump 'em all in one pot. Get up off your butt, grab a partner and MOVE those feet!

A little 80's disco ought to put a smile on your face!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h1rH_iaZkv0

errbody get up


edit: correction, 70's disco, apparently this is from 1977

 

[Gameface]

I'm from 1977

 

[♪alt13]

Let's do (same era)

Ok well now let's not lump 'em all in one pot. Get up off your butt, grab a partner and MOVE those feet!

A little 80's disco ought to put a smile on your face!
East
[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h1rH_iaZkv0
errbody get up


edit: correction, 70's disco, apparently this is from 1977

West
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBGksGTb90c

PS please tell me you know how to imbed youtube vids(you are a mod)

 

[♪alt13]

before OB jumps om it. me an jon denver are bost racist. O only picked him case jes white and he so clearly represents the aryan brotherhood.

That was sarcasm

stuopidhn oooooob

 

[moevillini]

PS please tell me you know how to imbed youtube vids(you are a mod)

Ok well now let's not lump 'em all in one pot. Get up off your butt, grab a partner and MOVE those feet!

A little 80's disco ought to put a smile on your face!
https://www.m.youtube.com/watch?v=h1rH_iaZkv0
errbody get up


edit: correction, 70's disco, apparently this is from 1977

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1rH_iaZkv0

OK, there ya go!

(it was the mobile version

 

[moevillini]

just to be fair and keep this gender-neutral...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyGAz7V5f5g

 

[moevillini]

That's generally what I thought you meant, but there is a very real connection between words and thoughts. Using different words changes our thoughts subtly.

Does using different words change the thoughts of the "speaker" or the "listener" or both? Does it matter which it is?

Anyhow some people put a lot of thought into what they say BEFORE they say it, and some people put no thought into their words at all. And generally, especially on a message board, you have no idea how much actual thought goes into any particular poster's choice of words. Maybe a word is chosen very deliberately, maybe not.

So if a particular word is chosen with intent, would you know?

 

[One Brow]

@ OB

How did you become a Jazz fan? Are you originally from St. Louis?

I ask because I have always thought that the West, Midwest, Northeast, and South are incredibly different. I wonder if part of the reason why you see things from a different perspective comes from living where you do.

I for one haven't met a person from east of Colorado that I feel like I truly understand. From our perspective you guys out there live in a different kind of world. A world that to us looks like it is more influenced by fear and therefore hate.

I grew up in Iowa and St. Louis. I became a fan watching the Jazz on TV in the 1990s.

Considering all the people on here who talk about using their guns to kill intruders in the various threads, I find it amusing that you think other parts of the country show more fear. Most people in most places are afraid.

 

[One Brow]

Well all we have is our judgement, what else are we supposed to use, your judgement? Should we set up a committee and have everyone's racism status verified and published or something so we all know how we are doing? You have been going in circles so much it seems like you are arguing this just to argue it and not to get to any point. We all are racist, there is nothing we can do about that, but we are terrible judges of how racist we are, but we shouldn't be racist, but we are no matter how hard we try, and there is no way to know when we are and when we aren't since we are such terrible judges of when we are being racist or not, but we shouldn't be racist, and every effort we make to be racist is wrong because we have no way to accurately judge when we are being racist or not.

I'd take this rant a little more seriously if you had bothered to respond to my suggestions of actual things you can do. Of course, doing things like that would interrupt your comfortable illusion that you're really a rational person who makes decisions for sound reasons.

...so you can ignore valid arguments (still haven't addressed whether or not we should be concerned about valid convictions, ...

I'm still waiting for you to justify why your idea of "valid convictions" applies at all to this study. My position is that since only the close calls go to the jury to begin with, there is no reason to think the black defendants are any more likely to be guilty than the white defendants, or vice-versa. You've avoided explaining why it's relevant. Care to give it a try?

...I am guessing feel superior ...

I'm just as human as you, and therefore just as subject to the racist cognitive shortcuts and conclusions.

since you can thwart everyone's attempts to get to a valid point or conclusion other than "you are, always have been, and always will be racist".

I find false conclusions and invalid points relatively easy to thwart.

You can keep worrying about always being a privileged white racist with no means or hope of ever changing, and I will continue playing basketball and having barbecues with my black friends and talking about issues that matter to them (and me) and do my best with my permanently flawed racial judgement to be a little less racist each day.

I bet you even let them use the bathroom. You're so enlightened! Have a cookie.

 

[One Brow]

I'm glad you are carrying all my racial guilt for me. The liberation!

Still waiting to hear all those non-hurtful things you'd like to say, but that the "politically correct" people aren't letting you say.

 

[One Brow]

Does using different words change the thoughts of the "speaker" or the "listener" or both? Does it matter which it is?

Anyhow some people put a lot of thought into what they say BEFORE they say it, and some people put no thought into their words at all. And generally, especially on a message board, you have no idea how much actual thought goes into any particular poster's choice of words. Maybe a word is chosen very deliberately, maybe not.

So if a particular word is chosen with intent, would you know?

The choice of words affects both the speaker and the listener. How could it be otherwise, given how our brains make associations?

I would agree the level of intent might change from word to word, but there is always intent behind any word choice, to some degree. You could make reasonable guesses based on context, but I agree you would never really know; some people put a lot of effort into looking casual, while others give no effort to sounding serious.

 

[Stoked]

Still waiting to hear all those non-hurtful things you'd like to say, but that the "politically correct" people aren't letting you say.

Here is a list of terms that have been attacked.

Pet Owner
Peanut Butter Sandwich
Columbus Day
Prayer
Holding Down the Fort
Terrorist
Christmas

Those are just the ones here in the U.S.. I didn't mention the ones being hit in other countries like "his" and "hers" in Sweden or "rule of thumb" in the UK.

Languagemonitor.com

Just love that you try to defend other people telling me what to do, think and say. But I cannot tell anyone else what to do, think or say because I am a white man. Sounds discriminatory.

 

[One Brow]

Here is a list of terms that have been attacked.

Pet Owner
Peanut Butter Sandwich
Columbus Day
Prayer
Holding Down the Fort
Terrorist
Christmas

Those are just the ones here in the U.S.. I didn't mention the ones being hit in other countries like "his" and "hers" in Sweden or "rule of thumb" in the UK.

Languagemonitor.com

Just love that you try to defend other people telling me what to do, think and say. But I cannot tell anyone else what to do, think or say because I am a white man. Sounds discriminatory.

Which of these terms have you been criticized for using, and by whom?

Pet Owner -- PETA? Seriously?
Peanut Butter Sandwich -- ??
Columbus Day -- I know of criticism of having the holiday at all, but not about the name for the holiday
Prayer -- ??
Holding Down the Fort -- In some contexts, I can see where this would be offensive. You can't?
Terrorist -- Yeah, no one *ever* says "terrorist".
Christmas -- Ditto.

If I were trying to caricature your argument, I doubt I could up with a sillier list.

Neither "rule or thumb" nor "Sweden" appeared on the front page of the website you offered.

Just love that you try to defend other people telling me what to do, think and say. But I cannot tell anyone else what to do, think or say because I am a white man. Sounds discriminatory.

I'm still waiting for an example of someone telling you what or say that you actually think I would agree with, that is not hurtful at the same time.

Of course, as a white man, you expect that you should b able to day anything you want, other people's feelings be damned, and not get called out on it. I'm used to that.

 

[moevillini]

I think that sometimes calling attention to the subtle "biases" in a person's language is counterproductive as it can make that person feel very self-conscious and resentful that they can't make a simple statement without others reacting to it in a way that had nothing to do with the speaker's intent when making the statement

yes, it may make that person think twice before they say something that you might find offensive - - or it can make them just keep their mouth shut and decide they don't want to talk to you at all. My personal choice ( and yes, this is a choice) would be to say "happy holidays" and take my chances that you aren't overly offended that I didn't say "Merry Christmas" - - although, as it gets to be within a day or two of Christmas, I just might say "merry christmas" - again, with the hope that you won't be overly offended.

by the way, when is Festivus this year?

 

[Stoked]

Which of these terms have you been criticized for using, and by whom?

Pet Owner -- PETA? Seriously?
Peanut Butter Sandwich -- ??
Columbus Day -- I know of criticism of having the holiday at all, but not about the name for the holiday
Prayer -- ??
Holding Down the Fort -- In some contexts, I can see where this would be offensive. You can't?
Terrorist -- Yeah, no one *ever* says "terrorist".
Christmas -- Ditto.

If I were trying to caricature your argument, I doubt I could up with a sillier list.

Neither "rule or thumb" nor "Sweden" appeared on the front page of the website you offered.



I'm still waiting for an example of someone telling you what or say that you actually think I would agree with, that is not hurtful at the same time.

Of course, as a white man, you expect that you should b able to day anything you want, other people's feelings be damned, and not get called out on it. I'm used to that.

Gave you a list. If you choose to ignore it that is on you.

I know you are used to calling people things and not getting called out on it. The whole board knows that.

Furthermore, as I am a white male and the source of the worlds ills, according to you in your numerous posts, why should you care what I think?

I'm done watching you try and pass some deep seated guilt you have onto everyone else. If you feel bad and that you have work to do then great. Go do so but stop passing that on to others.

Good day.