Reasons you left the LDS church.

[Jazz Spazz]

Look, let's revisit how this conversation started. You said:



I was just trying to say that Jesus isn't necessary to live a life about more than getting yours. I think it should be obvious why someone who isn't religious might have a problem with your statement. I find it sad that you can't find joy/wonder/reason to be decent without the church. I find it sad that you require the promise of a heavenly reward to feel good about your life.

I even qualified my statements, in case I misunderstood, implicitly inviting you to clear things up.

I don't think it's lame to be less critical of people who talk about things they know about (through personal experience, research, whatever) than of people who talk about things they don't know about.

I can see how the wording gave off the impression about needing God to not be selfish. That was not the intent. There are plenty of very selfish people that use God as a shield for their true intentions.

You can find joy/wonder/reason and be decent without the church.

I made a post about the differences in motivation for doing things, a reward definitely should not be the reason I believe what I believe.
I'm not going to re post it.

Again, my post was about me, and why I do what I do. Someone who has a problem with a statement I make about why I do what I do should not project that onto themselves. I was not comparing my life to anything, just stating the facts.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I don't think it's lame to be less critical of people who talk about things they know about (through personal experience, research, whatever) than of people who talk about things they don't know about.

Which does not jive with what you are posting and doing.
They also spoke about what they know about based on their experiences, just the same as I was.

 

[GVC]

I didn't grow up in Utah and I think that helps a lot. Church in Utah is very different and creates the judgmental atmosphere.


Also it comes down to happiness. For whatever reason I wasnt happy when I was inactive. As much as it sounds lame there wasn't a spiritual feeling in my home, and I would feel it in other active members homes. I remember stopping by a family friends home who is a patriarch and the feeling you felt was amazing. I know it's sounds odd but I wanted my children to grow up in a home like that felt like that.

I have no problem with this.

 

[GVC]

Which does not jive with what you are posting and doing.
They also spoke about what they know about based on their experiences, just the same as I was.

You made statements about your life with the church v. your life without the church. If you've never been an adult, living without the church, how could you possibly know how you'd feel without the church?

 

[Jazz Spazz]

so it's almost more a matter of needing the proof you find rather than finding the proof you need?

or maybe it's defining the question in terms of the answers you already have?

I'm not sure, but that's just sort of how I feel about some of this stuff.

This is like the chicken and the egg conversation?

Does it really matter which one really came first? You still have the reality of live chickens, and that they hatch from eggs before our eyes.
Things can be real without knowing exactly how they work or exactly how they came about.

All we care about is that we can go to KFC and eat oil cooked chicken that tastes good, right?

Interesting to think about though, but I doubt I could answer that even for myself.
How do you find the proof you need if you don't know what you are looking for.
How do you have answers to your questions, if you don't have the question in the first place?

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I don't expect people, even many church members, to get it but I would feel empty without the church.
Not the church itself, but the principles, truths, purposes, ordinances, teachings, or the feelings.

You made statements about your life with the church v. your life without the church. If you've never been an adult, living without the church, how could you possibly know how you'd feel without the church?

I have always been a "member" of the church, but that does not mean I don't know what it's like to not have the principles, truths, purposes, ordinances, teachings, or feelings in my life.

You were a member of the church, but in your heart weren't you out of the church long before you stopped going to church, or before you had your name removed as a "member" of the church?

Are you really asking, because it seems you are telling me what is possible for me to know or not know, or feel or not feel in a question form.

 

[GVC]

I have always been a "member" of the church, but that does not mean I don't know what it's like to not have the principles, truths, purposes, ordinances, teachings, or feelings in my life.

Please don't be offended, I don't mean to be rude, but how old are you? Do you live with your parents? If so, are they active members of the church?

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

While I usually refrain from commenting on religious discussions on JazzFanz, I thought I should share my story. I was raised in a family that was moderately active in the Pentecostal church, or Assemblies of God. We probably went to church 1-2 times a month, much to my displeasure. When I was 16, I started hanging out with some Mormon friends. We all became very close, and I eventually started learning about the church. At 19, I was baptized (much to my parents displeasure), and served a mission in Madagascar a year later. Now 27, I am happy to say that I am active and engaged in church activities. Am I Peter Priesthood? No. I enjoy rated-R movies, Call of Duty, and Dr. Pepper.

The church has brought much more joy & happiness in my life than I believe I could have found elsewhere. As much as I love and respect those who attend the Pentecostal church, it wasn't for me. Sunday's were certainly more fun with bands, speaking in tongues, a fantastic preacher, and snacks. However, I had a hard time accepting much of the doctrine. The biggest point for me was that I couldn't believe that everyone who wasn't Christian, or didn't accept Christ, was literally going to burn in Hell for eternity, or that this short life would be their only opportunity to do so.

Contrary to many LDS missionaries, I was never disappointed when someone decided not to get baptized. I always figured that they have something in their life that currently fills that need. The church is ABSOLUTELY not for everyone, but it has helped and blessed me more than I could possibly explain on this forum.

 

[Archie Moses]

This board has helped my narrow mindedness out so much. The thing I can't stress the most that would make this world a better place, regardless of beliefs, is tolerance.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

This board has helped my narrow mindedness out so much. The thing I can't stress the most that would make this world a better place, regardless of beliefs, is tolerance.

Absolutely!! Rep!

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Please don't be offended, I don't mean to be rude, but how old are you? Do you live with your parents? If so, are they active members of the church?

Nice... I should just walk away, because I don't think you are in any way being sincere, but in the small chance you have heard nothing about me on this site...

I am 40, am married, with a handful of children, I own my home if you must know, one of my parents is dead, and the other parent is active in the LDS church. Both of my parents joined the church later in their lives, but before I was born, and chose to change some habits and chose to accept the LDS faith knowing full well what life was like to not be a member of the LDS church.

Cut the crap, and quit trying to argue. Grow up.

I'm really not offended, it just seems very apparent to me that you have some angle and you don't really care. You are just trying to prove something.

 

[GVC]

Nice... I should just walk away, because I don't think you are in any way being sincere, but in the small chance you have heard nothing about me on this site...

I am 40, am married, with a handful of children, I own my home if you must know, one of my parents is dead, and the other parent is active in the LDS church. Both of my parents joined the church later in their lives, but before I was born, and chose to change some habits and chose to accept the LDS faith knowing full well what life was like to not be a member of the LDS church.

Cut the crap, and quit trying to argue. Grow up.

I'm really not offended, it just seems very apparent to me that you have some angle and you don't really care. You are just trying to prove something.

It was an honest question. I always assumed you were teenaged (honestly). I didn't know any of that about you, which is why I asked.

It bothers me when people who have lived in a very narrow culture for their whole lives talk about what life is like in that culture v. not in that culture. I find it hard to believe that anyone can have an accurate gauge on what life is like for someone else whose experience is completely different than their own. How could you possibly know what you'd be like if you weren't Mormon?

That's all I was trying to say.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I know not every member of the LDS Church talks about non members in a condescending way.

Of course.

Yes, most do, whether they'll admit it or not or whether they understand that they are or not, but that has to do with people, not the "church".

Fixed.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

It was an honest question. I always assumed you were teenaged (honestly). I didn't know any of that about you, which is why I asked.

It bothers me when people who have lived in a very narrow culture for their whole lives talk about what life is like in that culture v. not in that culture. I find it hard to believe that anyone can have an accurate gauge on what life is like for someone else whose experience is completely different than their own. How could you possibly know what you'd be like if you weren't Mormon?

That's all I was trying to say.

I see what you are saying.

Do you not get that I am not saying what life is like for people in or out of the church.
I am only saying what life is like for me.

I can talk to friends about their life experiences and try to understand things they have gone through in their perspective as much as I can.
I can watch my siblings/friends grow up and make choices that affect their lives and see from a close outside point of view some of the effects of those choices.
I can learn quite a bit about things I have never experienced through watching, and listening to others. If every person in this life had to learn everything the hard way we would not live in such a technologically advanced society. If every person alive had to "discover" fire for themselves, we as a culture, would not be where we are today.

I can say I think I know what life would be like, again, for me... if I chose to leave the LDS faith and I can know that better than anyone else can know that for me.

Using your logic, you cannot know what it is like to be a member of the LDS faith your whole life as much as I don't know what it's like to not be a member. Using your logic we shouldn't talk, we have nothing in common. You don't know what it's like to be me, I don't know what it's like to be you, so we can't learn anything from each other. Am I pushing this too far for you?

Maybe you can't "know". But you can have a pretty good idea.

Maybe it bothers me a bit too when someone leaves a culture they didn't like for whatever reason and talk like they know everything about it and the people that are part of it. Obviously you did not get something out of the LDS church that I have. Does that mean I am better than you, or you are better than me? No. It means the things you value in life are not found there, and the things I value in life are found there.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Of course.


Fixed.

Says the guy who always talks about the LDS church and it's members in a condescending way.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I just want to point out that being an inactive member with doubts is not the same thing - or even close - to calling BS on the whole thing and leaving it to the curb. When you're inactive with doubts, there is a lot of cognitive dissonance that has to be resolved in order to approach happiness. The context and frame of your experiences, thoughts, and new information is also very different than after you just make a decision - one way or another - and move on.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Says the guy who always talks about the LDS church and it's members in a condescending way.

You don't think the idea of so loudly and proudly proclaiming "ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHURCH ON EARTH" with an emphasis on proselytizing like the church has is inherently condescending? I'm not saying this is an LDS patent, either.

And having spent 17 years going to church (and having a wonderful family that is overwhelmingly LDS), I am not naive nor ignorant on the matter.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I just want to point out that being an inactive member with doubts is not the same thing - or even close - to calling BS on the whole thing and leaving it to the curb. When you're inactive with doubts, there is a lot of cognitive dissonance that has to be resolved in order to approach happiness. The context and frame of your experiences, thoughts, and new information is also very different than after you just make a decision - one way or another - and move on.

True. There is a big difference.

Nice post.

 

[Archie Moses]

You don't think the idea of so loudly and proudly proclaiming "ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHURCH ON EARTH" with an emphasis on proselytizing like the church has is inherently condescending?

Not any more than atheist telling people who believe in god that it's made up and BS.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

You don't think the idea of so loudly and proudly proclaiming "ONE AND ONLY TRUE CHURCH ON EARTH" with an emphasis on proselytizing like the church has is inherently condescending? I'm not saying this is an LDS patent, either.

And having spent 17 years going to church (and having a wonderful family that is overwhelmingly LDS), I am not naive nor ignorant on the matter.

I think we take things how we want to take them. If member of the LDS faith believe it is true, then they are just stating facts as they know them.
It can be done in an "I'm better than you" way, but it can also be done in a way that it's just fact.

Of course I want to go to a church that I feel has more of the "truth" than the other churches out there. If I believed in God and believed he was backing a church, it would be dumb on my part if I did not follow through with that belief. Of course if someone has something of value in their eyes they are willing to share it with others. It would be selfish and greedy to hold back something of value, especially if sharing it didn't harm you in any way and you could see how it helped many people.

If you believe these things, you see it as sharing something of value, and stating the truth.

If you don't believe it you see it as someone that has been duped pretend they are better than you.

It all depends on your perspective, and on what you want to see.