Reasons you left the LDS church.
- Thread starter Beantown
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Muslims are masters of apologetics. They make every statement in the Quran to be a miraculous metaphor for some scientific discovery. Even that funny story about Alexander the Great fighting a race of subterranean midgets that use their big ears as a blanket.
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Muslims are masters of apologetics. They make every statement in the Quran to be a miraculous metaphor for some scientific discovery. Even that funny story about Alexander the Great fighting a race of subterranean midgets that use their big ears as a blanket.
Thats an unfair assumption to make. I have posted in many religious discussions ( I am muslim myself) and I can fairly say that I have never pimped the scientific "accuracy" of my religion. PS, the link that One Brow posted is quite the poor one. If you click on the hyperlinked excerpts, the words are taken from a flawed english translation of the koran, and even the excerpts are paraphrased poorly, in my opinion. This isn't me blindly defending my religion, I'm just saying you could probably find better sources on the net of maybe pointing out a scientific inaccuracy or two.
Over the years I have noticed that marriages consisting of different races, cultures, religious beliefs, etc. work relatively well until children are introduced into the picture. Beliefs that meant nothing to either parent all of the sudden become very important. Even if both parents come to some sort of understanding regarding religious upbringing there is a lot of outside pressure exerted on the marriage such as the parent's parents and in-laws.
This is a widespread phenomenon in Islam, whether you personally engage in it or not. They call it "i'jaz" and is a common belief among even laymen. And the idea that you mentioned about "inaccurate translation" is almost just as widely used to defend the Quran. The reason Muslim apologists insist on using "pure Arabic" as the only valid language for the Quran is because once you take out all the rhyming and heavy-handedness, all you're left with are implausible stories (I'm being polite) about god's war with the elephant people, and people sleeping in a cave for a thousand years to avoid an evil dictator.
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What makes you say this?? Do you know many muslims? This is the sort of blanket statement that everyone was ripping on GVC for, and here you are doing the exact same thing. I wanna hear some justification for this, other than "oh well just from MY experience, Ive met a lot of muslims who are like this" because, quite frankly, thats an awful reason.
It is best if I just ignore this portion of post. If you're going to go into a discussion with an assumption like that about the quran, then it is high unlikely that you will learn anything from our discourse. Its funny how you act as if you have everything all figured out, yet your knowledge of the islamic faith probably stems from some sort of anti-islamist wordpress article.
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Deleted member 848
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Id try and get people to set aside half an hour and watch these speeches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CfVRTj9tv0
This one is a bit shorter, and just an interesting video to watch; some interesting points are brought up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S_A9ERJWN0
To me, one of the things I have always stressed to my friends (99% of which are christian) is how similar our religions are.
Id also point them out to this article: https://misconceptions-about-islam.com/
Things like the burka, the hijab. NONE are mentioned in the Quran. In the quran, women are only instructed to maintain modesty, no joke. Over time, some of the man-made hadiths have interpreted this as meaning that women should physically guard their modesty.
The most ironic thing about islam, to me, is how tolerant it is of other religions, and other people in general; something that in perceived as being the opposite in modern western civilization. People don't know that Islamic countries were among the first that granted freedom of religion to most of their earlier theocracies, which is the reason you still find minor Christian populations throughout the middle-east. To me, these misconceptions are the only things I would love for most non-muslims to know. For people who are more curious about the religion, I offer links like how congruent science and islam are, and so on but for the most part Id just be super happy if most of these stereotypes were debunked. That is all I could ask for.
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I'm sorry, but it seems you're the one who lacks the knowledge. The idea of I'jaz is deeply entrenched in Muslims culture, and was the major force behind Al-Ghazali's influential Quranic Science movement that crippled the scientific establishment in the Muslim world in the 13th century. Muslim clergy continue to call themselves "the men of knowledge" to this day. Ibn-Qutb, a more recent Muslim philosopher, re-ignited opposition to scientific pursuit by arguing that "Western" science is an affront to Islam, and that Muslims must trust the Quran's proclamations.
Muslims argue endlessly that verses of the Quran, such as the ones describing things like embryonic development, are proof of the Quran's scientific inerrancy. The complaint about "blanket statements" tries to disarm the argument by pretending that since not every single believer acts that way, the phenomenon must be irrelevant. But it is not. I am compelled to simply debate the merits of one's beliefs, not how to avoid issues that make one uncomfortable.
As for my comment about Muslims claiming that Quran is best understood in Arabic; that is a fact. Muslims often say that. It is not even controversial. The rest of the statement is just opinion. After all, reading Quranic Suras like "Al-lahhab" sound impressive in Arabic. The Quranic language is archaic, and thus inherently mystical and intellectual-sounding. But if you actually try to understand the meaning of the sura, it is simply saying "Damn that man Abu Lahab. Does he think his riches will preventing him from burning in hell? No! He will burn. And that evil wife of his will feed the fire that burns him." Now it sounds less like the word of god, and more like Mohammad talking about how much he hates some random person.
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To me, i'jaz means uniqueness, the fact that the Quran is inimitable. To my imam, I am certain that it means the same thing, since we recently went over this concept. It is simply a testament that no man could have written it, and the advice of the surah's should be taken to heart, and that no man-made intervention has been made. To you, the idea of i'jaz seems to mean that (correct me if I'm wrong) the quran is one entire scientific revelation, and that every single event, story, surah is a metaphor for another scientific revelation; coupled with this claim, you say that this is "common knowledge amongst even the laymen" and that inherently, science and islam cannot co-exist. Again, you sharing this view is quite comical to me to say the absolute least; my reluctance to dispute with you is because to me, there aren't many reasons to try and educate an individual who has come up with these preconceptions, not say where he got them from, and spew them forth in a very brash manner, as opposed to asking about a topic he likely doesn't know very much about.
Also, its funny how you attribute the ENTIRE decline of the islamic golden age of science to Al-Ghazali. Please offer some critical sources that shed some insight on this; because, I am finding this claim amusing to say the least. You then name one islamic philosopher, Ibn-Qutb, who has a certain viewpoint of islamic science, and you use the viewpoint of ONE muslim to then blanket 1.1 billion other peoples opinions. Tantamount to me hearing the opinions of one crazy evangelical priest, and tieing that generalization with the rest of christianity. Swing and a miss, siromar.
Its true, the Quran is without a doubt best understood in Arabic. It is the initial language that it was recorded in, thus every other translation inherently has an element of man-made revisions subject to it. I don't understand why you're making this a big deal; this allies to biblical translations as well.
So if you're trying to understand the meaning of any surah of the quran, it basically boils down to mohamman ranting on about how much he hates people? Siromar, how about you give us a bit more context in that "quote" you chose to show your biased views of the quran?? How about you post that surah for everyone to see, and see if all we derive from it is: Mohammad hates this guy, and is just ranting about it. Again, I'm curious. How did you educate yourself over these viewpoints of the Quran??
A few posts back, I mentioned how people tend to convince themselves that they are a part of a consensus, and that those who disagree simply don't understand. You act like one cannot debate with you unless they already are Muslims. But I hate to break it to you, my knowledge comes from living my half of my life in the very heart of Islam, in a Muslim family, attending Friday prayers, fasting Ramadan, celebrating al-fitr, and memorizing the Quran.
I never attributed the decline of the Muslim nation to Al-Ghazali. He was certainly responsible in part. But his major contribution is successfully painting science and philosophy as anti-Islamic. To this day, Arabs use the term "betfalsaf" which literally means "Being philosophical" to indicate someone who talks non-sense. And I do not need to generalize to make my point. Just look at the Muslim world. I don't need to even say anything. Just look at that beacon of progress and tolerance! YOU are the minority. YOUR view of Islam is the radical one. For every video you post on how Muslims must respect women, I can give you 20 that say the opposite. Let me demonstrate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChnpaMK1oLQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJkmRBEOC3o
That took about 3 seconds to find.
And as far as my quote being out of context. Go ahead, help me out. Provide the context!
I never attributed the decline of the Muslim nation to Al-Ghazali. He was certainly responsible in part. But his major contribution is successfully painting science and philosophy as anti-Islamic. To this day, Arabs use the term "betfalsaf" which literally means "Being philosophical" to indicate someone who talks non-sense. And I do not need to generalize to make my point. Just look at the Muslim world. I don't need to even say anything. Just look at that beacon of progress and tolerance! YOU are the minority. YOUR view of Islam is the radical one. For every video you post on how Muslims must respect women, I can give you 20 that say the opposite. Let me demonstrate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChnpaMK1oLQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp3Eam5FX58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJkmRBEOC3o
That took about 3 seconds to find.
And as far as my quote being out of context. Go ahead, help me out. Provide the context!
CONAN
Well-Known Member
Muslims recognize Christ as a good dude with good teachings and prophet (just not theirs) but not as a deity, right?
Also before the Crusades there were christians in Jerusalem even though Muslims were in power. The Muslims were very tolerant of the Christians and everything was fine til the European christians lost their minds, right?
Also before the Crusades there were christians in Jerusalem even though Muslims were in power. The Muslims were very tolerant of the Christians and everything was fine til the European christians lost their minds, right?
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Deleted member 848
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Correct on both accounts. Muslims simply think that God (english for Allah, we have the same God) cannot beget, nor is he begotten; meaning that Jesus Christ cannot be his literal son. Jesus is still believed to be the Messiah, and he is expected to appear on the dawn of judgement day, similar to christian theology. He is one of the most respected of prophets; he just isn't seen as superhuman, like you said. To this day you can find christians in Iraq (Khaldians), Turkey, Iran, etc. Unfortunately, over the past century the Islamic World has reversed a significant amount of social progress it has had, and many nations like Saudi Arabia are exiting their "views" on what Islam is, exercising many non-democratic legislations such as stoning women (not in Quran), reducing female rights when it comes to thinks like driving, school, covering up, and so on. From a Muslim's point of view, it really is quite a sad sight to see, seeing as our faith is now being painted in this image of Hammurabi-esque civilization.
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Dont misunderstand me- the reason I was reluctant to argue with you was because the points that you kept putting across were points that I have regularly seen from people who don't know much about the Islamic faith. You seem to keep insisting that the majority of Muslims share the view of the Quran being a Scientific Allegory when in my few years of studying my faith have rarely come across. That is quite interesting, do you mind sharing some of your life history?? It might make me help understand where you're coming from, and lead to a better discussion, because right now I am not understanding much of the direction that yorue arguing in, admittedly.
The beacon of progress that we witness in the middle-east nowadays is a seriously skewed perception of what Islam is. My view is most-certainly not the radical one. I have learned almost everything from my local denominations, and from speeches from extremely prestigious scholars like Zakir. In my mind, my local Imams and people like Zakir are "true-muslims", and really embody what my faith is all about. Now, you might argue that people like me are in the minority, and I guess that could be argued. However, that is not the religions problem: countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia and the emergence of factions like the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are to blame.
PS: just because Western media outlets has more "evidence" of muslims mistreating women than the contrary, is that to be directly associated with what the religion actually is, stands for, and how the majority behaves? I personally can find 50 times more news-articles of priests molesting children, than priests who have had immeasurably positive impacts on kids growing up; therein lies your flaw in that argument.
https://www.quranenglish.com/tafheem_quran/111.htm This to me shows that Surah 111 is a lot more than "Muhammad venting on a person he doesn't like". There is a moral to the story that readers can learn form, something you seem to be keep to ignore.
I am glad the discussion went in this direction. I labor to stay away from arguing religion specifics. The religious will accept what conforms to their view, and what doesn't is left to interpretation. But the problem is larger than disagreements on doctrine. The problem is the very existence of doctrine itself. You say that Saudi Arabia and Iran corrupted Islam. But the Wahabis and Ayatollahs will say the same about you. You will carry your Quran and quote them the error of their ways, but in turn, they will pick up theirs and show you yours. What is a true Muslim, Christian, Mormon, Jew, whatever, always depends on who's proclaiming the truth.
I touched upon my journey in an earlier response (around page 9 or so), and I don't see a point in detailed elaboration. Simply, I could clearly see that religions offered little explanation, and I got tired of trying to mold my prior beliefs with facts that seem to strongly contradict them. Some people never give up. My father went through a similar journey, but he never gave up the faith. Instead, he opted to solve the absurdities by claiming that Noah must have DNA-sequenced the ark animals and simply cloned them after the flood. And that Djin must be residing in a parallel dimension that is quantum entangled with ours.
I saw no point in such dishonest mental acrobatics, so I decided to find a better paradigm from scratch. I eventually learned that the very idea belief is unnecessary, useless, often harmful, and almost always counter-productive.
That's why I'd rather talk about the bigger picture rather than whether Islam encourages beating women. You'll do all in your power to prove it does not, I am sure. But what if you thought the Quran did encourage beating women? Then you'll do as those Imams did in the video. You'll try and justify the reason for the judgement, but you won't question the belief itself. To you, and most people of faith, what is right and what is wrong depend on your understanding of what your deity said. You will not question whether that deity is wrong, much less the existence of that deity.
I touched upon my journey in an earlier response (around page 9 or so), and I don't see a point in detailed elaboration. Simply, I could clearly see that religions offered little explanation, and I got tired of trying to mold my prior beliefs with facts that seem to strongly contradict them. Some people never give up. My father went through a similar journey, but he never gave up the faith. Instead, he opted to solve the absurdities by claiming that Noah must have DNA-sequenced the ark animals and simply cloned them after the flood. And that Djin must be residing in a parallel dimension that is quantum entangled with ours.
I saw no point in such dishonest mental acrobatics, so I decided to find a better paradigm from scratch. I eventually learned that the very idea belief is unnecessary, useless, often harmful, and almost always counter-productive.
That's why I'd rather talk about the bigger picture rather than whether Islam encourages beating women. You'll do all in your power to prove it does not, I am sure. But what if you thought the Quran did encourage beating women? Then you'll do as those Imams did in the video. You'll try and justify the reason for the judgement, but you won't question the belief itself. To you, and most people of faith, what is right and what is wrong depend on your understanding of what your deity said. You will not question whether that deity is wrong, much less the existence of that deity.
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Went through pages 6-11, still didn't find any brief "touchings" on your past other than you going to BYU for however long; regardless, if you wanna share, then PM me- I definitely won't press you any further. Care to share how the very idea of belief is counter-productive, harmful, and so on? I am understanding your other points on how anyone can read a religious scripture, and support their pre-determinations of what is morally correct. It is important to note, that the Ayatollahs typically quote the HADITHS as scriptural justifications MUCH more often than the Quran itself, but I can still see where you're coming from and in the end it still does interlink with the point you made. 'Tis a flaw of human nature. But to me, this flaw (that is essentially universal across all religions) doesn't really influence me to just give up on faith altogether. Im curious as to how one thing lead to another for you; again, if you don't want to share, then thats okay.
I'm enjoying this discussion about the Quran and variant views in the moslem faith. Reassuring in fact, to know that the basic elements of humanity are at work in this religion as well as Christianity and Judaism. Last week I watched a documentary on the Hasidim, origins and subsequent developments. I consider the Buddists probably an older generation of religion in terms of how the ideals have ultimately accepted humanity "as is", while nevertheless having mystical elements and yearnings to fathom the unknowables of the universe as well as idealized notions of how people can live better.
What is "new" about the faiths that have developed from the tradition of Abraham is the idea of a covenant, and the authority of "true" messengers in the light and promise of that covenant. Has anyone got any link/comment/source that could point to an actual promise from God to man, a covenant, or messengers of such a covenant from any other religion?
I have felt my life enriched since the time when a co-worker gave me a Koran decades ago. I read it a little, but mostly I guess I never understood it. But at least I got the idea that real people could find something to value in it, just like I do with my own "scripture".
What is "new" about the faiths that have developed from the tradition of Abraham is the idea of a covenant, and the authority of "true" messengers in the light and promise of that covenant. Has anyone got any link/comment/source that could point to an actual promise from God to man, a covenant, or messengers of such a covenant from any other religion?
I have felt my life enriched since the time when a co-worker gave me a Koran decades ago. I read it a little, but mostly I guess I never understood it. But at least I got the idea that real people could find something to value in it, just like I do with my own "scripture".
I'll copy and paste from the post I'm referring to:
" I was raised in a modestly religious community. I was never really a deep believer, but I was fairly observant as that was what was expected of me. As I got older, I started developing a general dislike of the religious outlook, and began to question some of tenets, trying to find alternative views. Finding whichever views suite you is easy in a religious community, as you can discard undesirable outlooks and adopt others. But I remained a passive believer until I moved to a different continent, with different views. Not having any ties to my original community, leaving the religion behind was simple.
Had you asked me my reasons then, I probably would have given you a general description of the tenets I specially disagreed with, and a vague philosophical justification. Having been an unbeliever for so long, I can write several books on why I do not believe. The main reasons I am an unbeliever now have very little to do with why I originally "lost faith". "
I'm not being shy. My story is not exceptional. Nothing dramatic happened to push me away. It just didn't make sense, so I stopped believing it.
When I say faith is harmful, I don't mean religious belief. I mean ALL faith. It is a human flaw than most people cannot overcome. That impulse to assign meaning to patterns. The tendency to surrender the mysterious to the mystical.
I think that humanity is a miracle. Truly. I am about the biggest atheist you'll find. But it is hard not to respect the idea of humanity. Among the billions of billions of organic machines that we call life, one design emerges triumphant. We dream of traversing the stars, and fight over the nature of infinity. So I understand why humans, a lone candle of intelligence in a desert of darkness, look to the skies for company. But that impulse betrays all that makes us great. It is a waste of processing power.
I think that every problem should be approached logically to try to achieve an acceptable solution toward a rational objective. I think the most rational objective is the benefit of mankind. I think faith stands in the way. Whenever we want to spread rights to those without, the faithful stand in the way. Whenever we discover a model that helps explain the rules of existence, the religious stand in the way. And whenever we ask why, it becomes a matter of respecting faith. What is the basis for that faith? Why should we accept it? Show us your reasons. SHOW US YOUR GODS!
I don't want faith. I don't want Nazis believing in the superiority of their phenotype. I don't want communists believing in their proletariat utopia. I don't think the economy must be left to the invisible hand. And I don't want my morals coming from ancient book, or even self-proclaimed gods. I want to try and create a better world. And a better world can only be achieved through the labors of our intellect. It will only come through trial and error. Through taking chances and keeping an open mind. Religion, in any shape of form is the antitheses not just of progress, but to the dignity of mankind.
The Black Swordsman
Well-Known Member
I normally don't like throwing religions under the bus but since this whole thread is basically bashing LDS religion I guess I will to.
Nothing in the Quran has been proven wrong. People say it is much more accurate because it came out 700 years after the Bible. Well, (here comes the LDS bashing) but the book of Mormon came out in 1830... and lets just compare the two religions.
The LDS church states that having black skin is a curse of god. The LDS church says that Native Americans are from Israel. DNA evidence clearly states that they are from ASIA of arctic Mongoloid origin. I mean, after reading that, it is pretty convincing that the LDS church does not comply with science.
The Koran never states the Sun rotates around the earth, it states that it has a rotation, which it does.
The Koran says that the Earth is egg shaped, more specifically an ostrich egg. Google what an ostrich egg looks like.
The Koran states that ALL living things are made out of water. An illiterate man in the desert said this 1400 years ago. The Quran says the word Hijab zero times.
The Quran (the spellings are interchangeable btw). The Koran doesn't say that the earth was created in 7 days, it says 7 periods of time. It never states Noah's arc was global but rather in a sizable amount of land so a local phenomena.
The Koran says that the stars will make the devils set ablaze, to compare the bible says they are tiny objects of the sky.
I love the Christian culture I truly do. I used to be Lutheran and I won't lie if I say I don't miss it, doing what I want to do and never having to pray and saying all my sins will be forgiven is nice. But Muslims are more Christian then Christians in that they follow the teaching of Christ. Just proclaiming you belief in him is a false belief. A vast majority of practicing Muslims don't drink, don't eat pork, and are circumcised. The same cannot be said about Christians. Eating pork and drinking is considered ok because later in the Bible it says "you cannot be corrupted by what you eat but rather by your actions" when previously it states all these things are bad. People take the bible as a buffet my family included. You can't just take what you wanna eat and leave the rest.
Nothing in the Quran has been proven wrong. People say it is much more accurate because it came out 700 years after the Bible. Well, (here comes the LDS bashing) but the book of Mormon came out in 1830... and lets just compare the two religions.
The LDS church states that having black skin is a curse of god. The LDS church says that Native Americans are from Israel. DNA evidence clearly states that they are from ASIA of arctic Mongoloid origin. I mean, after reading that, it is pretty convincing that the LDS church does not comply with science.
The Koran never states the Sun rotates around the earth, it states that it has a rotation, which it does.
The Koran says that the Earth is egg shaped, more specifically an ostrich egg. Google what an ostrich egg looks like.
The Koran states that ALL living things are made out of water. An illiterate man in the desert said this 1400 years ago. The Quran says the word Hijab zero times.
The Quran (the spellings are interchangeable btw). The Koran doesn't say that the earth was created in 7 days, it says 7 periods of time. It never states Noah's arc was global but rather in a sizable amount of land so a local phenomena.
The Koran says that the stars will make the devils set ablaze, to compare the bible says they are tiny objects of the sky.
I love the Christian culture I truly do. I used to be Lutheran and I won't lie if I say I don't miss it, doing what I want to do and never having to pray and saying all my sins will be forgiven is nice. But Muslims are more Christian then Christians in that they follow the teaching of Christ. Just proclaiming you belief in him is a false belief. A vast majority of practicing Muslims don't drink, don't eat pork, and are circumcised. The same cannot be said about Christians. Eating pork and drinking is considered ok because later in the Bible it says "you cannot be corrupted by what you eat but rather by your actions" when previously it states all these things are bad. People take the bible as a buffet my family included. You can't just take what you wanna eat and leave the rest.