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Rest Easy, The Jazz Will Be Awful

Eddie Zero said:
Neither NAW or THT are going to to be used nearly as much as they were in the preseason, and Ochai is used a lot more than he was for certain. Preseason rotations in fact means squat on a rebuilding team.
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It means something about what’s happening at this moment. But again, feel free to base what the rotation is going to look like tomorrow on something make believe.
 
Eddie Zero said:
pretty much has not gotten better at all since drafted, but still in the league. I expect sans an improved jumper and or floater if he gets on ball minutes, he is playing in China next year
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I don't think he finishes the season on the Jazz roster... and may get waived when he is moved. His biggest value is as a $5M expiring deal to help massage numbers in a trade.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I think everything factors in... I think you are factoring in draft pedigree a bit more than I would. The other part of this equation is there are other routes to bring Ochai along. You can't put THT or NAW in the G League. You can with Ochai... and it might be a good way for him to develop for the first part of the season.

I also don't see a super high upside prospect. I think his most likely outcome is like a Justin Holiday type wing. I see no reason for him to be ahead of schedule since he had a trade/move midway through his first offseason. I think we just have a little bit of a roster crunch and they know they have other means to develop Ochai that they don't for NAW/THT. When a guy pops in camp or preseason its almost always a surprise to me... regardless of how old they are. JB was supposed to be NBA ready... had a really good preseason... and now he's got no job. I'm just not concerned at all.
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Young Och will prove to be as good if not more impactful in a couple seasons as Bane has been in Memphis imo. He is already one of the highest floor players to come out of the draft outside of the top 5. He could regress if he cannot handle the speed of the game, but really don't see an issue there since he is a pogo stick.
 
KqWIN said:
It means something about what’s happening at this moment. But again, feel free to base what the rotation is going to look like tomorrow on something make believe.
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I am not suggesting the preseason does not tell the coaches something, but what I saw would tell me, those 2 don't deserve minutes over Ocahi. So if anything that you are right about regarding preseason having merit it's that those two stink
 
KqWIN said:
It is exhausting to repeat the same, very obvious talking points. If you want to say that the preseason rotation means nothing as far as what the rotation is and you’d rather base the rotation on something make believe, to each their own.
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I mean its pretty common for preseason minutes to go to players that are playing for their job NAW fits the bill...THT is a different story as I think he's just better than Ochai. He also brings more unique things they want to evaluate. I still think he sucks but oh well.

I would say THT is definitly ahead of Ochai in the rotation. NAW may very well have been on the roster bubble.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I think everything factors in... I think you are factoring in draft pedigree a bit more than I would. The other part of this equation is there are other routes to bring Ochai along. You can't put THT or NAW in the G League. You can with Ochai... and it might be a good way for him to develop for the first part of the season.

I also don't see a super high upside prospect. I think his most likely outcome is like a Justin Holiday type wing. I see no reason for him to be ahead of schedule since he had a trade/move midway through his first offseason. I think we just have a little bit of a roster crunch and they know they have other means to develop Ochai that they don't for NAW/THT. When a guy pops in camp or preseason its almost always a surprise to me... regardless of how old they are. JB was supposed to be NBA ready... had a really good preseason... and now he's got no job. I'm just not concerned at all.
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I don’t think anyone sees him as a high potential prospect, which is why his immediate level is of more interest. When JB couldn’t contribute right away it also gave me more concern than it would if it were more of an upside pick.

Like I said, I don’t think concern is the right way to put it. He’s not doomed, but his higher end outcomes (which aren’t high to begin with) seem less likely to manifest the less good he is right now. I saw someone day he would be an upgrade over Royce right away when we got him. Reality is he has long way to go to get to that level.

It’s kinda like with THT. Am I concerned he still sucks? Not really, but the idea of him being really good is fading quickly everyday. If you ever believed that was possibility in the first place that is.
 
KqWIN said:
I don’t think anyone sees him as a high potential prospect, which is why his immediate level is of more interest. When JB couldn’t contribute right away it also gave me more concern than it would if it were more of an upside pick.

Like I said, I don’t think concern is the right way to put it. He’s not doomed, but his higher end outcomes (which aren’t high to begin with) seem less likely to manifest the less good he is right now. I saw someone day he would be an upgrade over Royce right away when we got him. Reality is he has long way to go to get to that level.

It’s kinda like with THT. Am I concerned he still sucks? Not really, but the idea of him being really good is fading quickly everyday. If you ever believed that was possibility in the first place that is.
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And I just think its wild to judge him based on a couple weeks of practice in his rookie year. I see no bad signs... and I don't really care that some thought he'd be better than Royce from day one. Most of the guys that are "ready" still need some time. There are very few exceptions. The fact that he may not be an exception based on training camp and preseason is not something I would read into at all.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
And I just think its wild to judge him based on a couple weeks of practice in his rookie year. I see no bad signs... and I don't really care that some thought he'd be better than Royce from day one. Most of the guys that are "ready" still need some time. There are very few exceptions. The fact that he may not be an exception based on training camp and preseason is not something I would read into at all.
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If a big part of a player’s draft status is that he’s ready to contribute right away and it turns out he can’t play right away it is a a little worrying. If he was 19 it would be one thing, but he’s not even the youngest player out of the three we’re discussing. When you’re drafting a 22 year old senior with low upside you want him to see him be the exception that can contribute right away.

Like I said in my first post, I was suspicious of him as both a shooter and defender. If he was NBA ready in those aspects, probably just on one or the other, I don’t think he’d be behind those other two.
 
I think everyone is really under-appreciating how important NAW and THT are going to be for the longterm prospects of the organization this year. You don't wanna endanger that by playing a young guy that may or may not be better than them at helping a team win basketball games.
 
KqWIN said:
If a big part of a player’s draft status is that he’s ready to contribute right away and it turns out he can’t play right away it is a a little worrying. If he was 19 it would be one thing, but he’s not even the youngest player out of the three we’re discussing. When you’re drafting a 22 year old senior with low upside you want him to see him be the exception that can contribute right away.

Like I said in my first post, I was suspicious of him as both a shooter and defender. If he was NBA ready in those aspects, probably just on one or the other, I don’t think he’d be behind those other two.
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You are assuming that he can't contribute based on pre-season rotations on a roster and coaching staff that has had more turnover than any I can remember. Plenty "nba ready" guys didn't come in and light the world on fire from day 1. Maybe give it a month before getting worried.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
You are assuming that he can't contribute based on pre-season rotations on a roster and coaching staff that has had more turnover than any I can remember. Plenty "nba ready" guys didn't come in and light the world on fire from day 1. Maybe give it a month before getting worried.
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If they decide to really go full tank mode, with no regard for human life or fan abandonment, then it could very well be those 2 poor shooting guards in THT and NAW get more minutes, as this poster is suggesting, just like the preseason. But to try to suggest the rotations like Kqwin is projecting are based or would be based on any one player underperforming is laughable.
Agbaji has the tape , he has the pedigree of a champion, he is a clutch shooter,off ball movement is elite etc. and he just needs to be on a good team with a good floor general. So I guess maybe they can sit him out until he is trade eligible and flip him to a contender for some more THT NAW types that will put them closer to Victor range.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
You are assuming that he can't contribute based on pre-season rotations on a roster and coaching staff that has had more turnover than any I can remember. Plenty "nba ready" guys didn't come in and light the world on fire from day 1. Maybe give it a month before getting worried.
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I’m assuming he’s behind THT and NAW right now and it’s likely because they played better than him in camp. He’s not doomed forever, but it’s not a great start. It wasn’t fierce competition.

It’s just preseason, he’ll get his chance, but it’s probably one of the more notable things to come out of camp. I was interested to see how that competition shook out. Ochai wasn’t last, but I had some hopes he’d come out first if he was as advertised and that wasn’t the case.
 
You guys are right. This is actually a good sign because it means Ochai is too good of a basketball player and he will help us win too much. That’s why he can’t be in the rotation.


At least one person thinks this is serious lol.
 
KqWIN said:
I’m assuming he’s behind THT and NAW right now and it’s likely because they played better than him in camp. He’s not doomed forever, but it’s not a great start. It wasn’t fierce competition.

It’s just preseason, he’ll get his chance, but it’s probably one of the more notable things to come out of camp. I was interested to see how that competition shook out. Ochai wasn’t last, but I had some hopes he’d come out first if he was as advertised and that wasn’t the case.
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I mean... define played better in camp. Is Will tracking all the shooting percentages and parsing the +- from scrimmages. Its likely strictly eye test and the type of guy Ochai is won't stand out (a solid 3 and D type in pickup will stand out less than a guy who makes a lot of plays... even if it is not efficient). I think maybe.... just maybe... we should give it a month. At some point Rudy Gay is mothballed or traded... NAW and THT's percentages will be obvious on paper and then Ochai might get his share of the rotation minutes. There is nothing to see here.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I mean... define played better in camp. Is Will tracking all the shooting percentages and parsing the +- from scrimmages. Its likely strictly eye test and the type of guy Ochai is won't stand out (a solid 3 and D type in pickup will stand out less than a guy who makes a lot of plays... even if it is not efficient). I think maybe.... just maybe... we should give it a month. At some point Rudy Gay is mothballed or traded... NAW and THT's percentages will be obvious on paper and then Ochai might get his share of the rotation minutes. There is nothing to see here.
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Oh it's pretty simple. Played better in camp means that Will Hardy thinks they're a better player. Is that gospel? No it's not, but it's what we have to go off of. I don't think Hardy would sit Ochai because he's a better player like some are jokingly and non-jokingly suggesting.

There's not much to glean from preseason, but it would be different if Ochai was getting those minutes instead It would also be a different thing if we was getting next to zero minutes like Bolmaro. Are you meaning to tell me it would mean nothing if Ochai was named the starting SG? I'd be really excited about his future if he was starting for us, I'd take that as a good sign. I think his status in the preseason is pretty good proxy for how good he is at this moment. You can make what you want out of it, but he didn't beat out some crappy players in camp. If he beat out those guys, it would be a better sign than if he did not. That's it.
 
People are reading WAYYY too much into this. We have two players on the team that can pass, Conley and Olynyk. Jazz are trying to manufacture a 3rd out of THT or NAW. It appears that it is going to be THT. That battle has nothing to do with Ochai. I don't really think they see him in a distributor role.

Ochai is sitting behind Clarkson, Beasley, and maybe Sexton (not sure if they are going to push Sexton at the point yet.) By the trade deadline I would suspect that we clear out one of Clarkson or Beasley. Ochai is probably primed for that backup 2nd guard role. I would suspect that they put him in the G League right away to get minutes while they figure things out. Right now there really isn't anyone that can deliver Ochai the ball on that second unit, so what is the point in throwing him out there to watch Sexton shoot and NAW throw the ball away.

My biggest worry is that I thought Fontecchio was the guy they are trying to force NAW to be at the SF. He's a finished product and he isn't getting off the bench at all.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
You are assuming that he can't contribute based on pre-season rotations on a roster and coaching staff that has had more turnover than any I can remember. Plenty "nba ready" guys didn't come in and light the world on fire from day 1. Maybe give it a month before getting worried.
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Jimmy Butler comes emphatically and immediately to mind.
 
framer said:
People are reading WAYYY too much into this. We have two players on the team that can pass, Conley and Olynyk. Jazz are trying to manufacture a 3rd out of THT or NAW. It appears that it is going to be THT. That battle has nothing to do with Ochai. I don't really think they see him in a distributor role.

Ochai is sitting behind Clarkson, Beasley, and maybe Sexton (not sure if they are going to push Sexton at the point yet.) By the trade deadline I would suspect that we clear out one of Clarkson or Beasley. Ochai is probably primed for that backup 2nd guard role. I would suspect that they put him in the G League right away to get minutes while they figure things out. Right now there really isn't anyone that can deliver Ochai the ball on that second unit, so what is the point in throwing him out there to watch Sexton shoot and NAW throw the ball away.

My biggest worry is that I thought Fontecchio was the guy they are trying to force NAW to be at the SF. He's a finished product and he isn't getting off the bench at all.
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Normally pre-season is a good chance to get rookies and other young players some reps in a low-pressure situation. Ochai not getting a chance to get in the rotation stood out to me, especially for an older rookie, but maybe the whole damn season is so low-pressure that there's no hurry.

The problem with Fontecchio is that he's not used to the speed and athleticism of the NBA. He's getting blown by and faked out of his shoes on the defensive end. Keep an eye on his defense to see if it's passable enough for him to get on the floor and stay there.
 
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