Rest Easy, The Jazz Will Be Awful

[Eddie Zero]

Even if they were performing equally in practice the tie usually goes to the guys with nba experience. It’s a weird situation cuz all three guys are trying to establish their nba value. Ochai has the most runway so it makes sense he gets the backseat… front office and coaching staff have 4 years to figure out what they have. NAW and THT only have 1 and probably 2 years respectively. If it was just based on performance in game I don’t think NAW would be ahead of anyone. THT has had some moments.

I expect Ochai to get 15-20 minutes a night after the AS break or as soon as we make a move to thin the roster. I’m not worried about him at all.

My take is just a little different than both of you here. I think for example NAW should be a playmaking guard on ball more than off which should not jive with Agbaji, I think THT is an undersized 3 or even 4 at best and mostly would not impact Ochai Agbaji's minutes on this roster. However Jordan Clarkson , Collin Sexton and Mike Conley are all veterans that are in front of him in the rotation for sure,including Beasley, so unless they want to try him out at the 3 where he will be a bit undersized in his rookie season defensively, and needs time to adjust to the speed differences imo before he can hold down that job.
I would expect he is much higher in the pecking order for core pieces than either of the likes of Walker or Tucker.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I disagree. If it was close, Ochai would be given the minutes.

How exactly do you know this? I think seniority is definitely a thing. I think THT likely has been better than Ochai, but I think NAW might get more opportunity based on seniority and the fact he's kind of a leader on this team. There are times when young guys are brought along more slowly and have to clearly prove they are better than a guy with more seniority... and Ochai likely hasn't done that yet. I don't think it clearly means Hardy thinks those guys are better than Ochai... it could mean that though.

We are in full discovery mode... the discovery with some prospects is more urgent than others... give Ochai a spot above those guys then it will be hard to "demote" him and send him to the G League. Bring him along slowly and make him earn his PT by killing the guys in front of him in practice... or more likely NAW continues to stink up the joint and is replaced.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

NAW is shooting 7% from the field... if anything near that continues then I give zero ***** how good he is in practice or how good a locker room guy he is and we should play someone else.

Unless Hardy is fully in on the tank and really doesn't care how obvious it is.

 

[HeatCheck]

It's kind of an odd situation with a rookie HC and a bunch of 'veteran' wings in Gay, JC, NAW, Beasley, THT. Obviously Kessler didn't have such a roadblock at the center position. Fontecchio got caught up in the same number game as Agbaji.

I envision Agbaji will be more of a catch and shoot guy similar to Beasley and assume he will eventually get more minutes after Beas is traded. The NAW/THT situation will work itself out. Not sure they really need to be playing more than one of them in the rotation as they both need the ball in their hands and neither can shoot. Hopefully Fontecchio can take someone's place by the ASG.

Popovich in San Antonio makes his rookies earn their minutes and it appears Hardy is doing the same thing here with Agbaji.

 

[KqWIN]

How exactly do you know this? I think seniority is definitely a thing. I think THT likely has been better than Ochai, but I think NAW might get more opportunity based on seniority and the fact he's kind of a leader on this team. There are times when young guys are brought along more slowly and have to clearly prove they are better than a guy with more seniority... and Ochai likely hasn't done that yet. I don't think it clearly means Hardy thinks those guys are better than Ochai... it could mean that though.

We are in full discovery mode... the discovery with some prospects is more urgent than others... give Ochai a spot above those guys then it will be hard to "demote" him and send him to the G League. Bring him along slowly and make him earn his PT by killing the guys in front of him in practice... or more likely NAW continues to stink up the joint and is replaced.

How do you know it to be the other way around? The players who routinely receive more minutes than they should based on their play each year are first round draft picks. And there’s good reason for that. It’s logical to invest in the player who has the most talent and shows the most promise.

I think a fresh lottery pick is given more priority for playing time than borderline NBA players. Seniority is a thing, but it’s a thing with established vets and THT/NAW is the opposite of that. If either of these guys were real, established NBA players that would be one thing, but they’re not. If Doke were healthy, for example, I think he should have no priority over Kessler just because he’s had years in the league where he’s done nothing. Getting real PT isn’t the only chance you get in the NBA. What you do in practice matters. NAW is working on years of chances to prove himself.

And like I said, even if it’s close and Hardy chooses to go with “Senority”….it doesn’t really change my attitude towards Ochai. It’s still not good that Ochai is close with borderline NBA players that blatantly don’t look NBA caliber.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

I see what you are saying but NAW is shooting 7% from the field... He isn't some creator driver... He's a super nice kid who they are trying to give every opportunity before not re-signing him next year or using him as cap filler in a trade.

I know exactly what NAW is shooting. However, if you look how he's playing, he's got the ball in his hands, he's driving into the paint and he's dishing off. He is a driver/creator. That's why he's getting minutes. It's not just because he's a nice kid. If you want to talk about nice kids, talk about Bolmaro. That dude is as friendly as your mom's puppy.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

How do you know it to be the other way around? The players who routinely receive more minutes than they should based on their play each year are first round draft picks. And there’s good reason for that. It’s logical to invest in the player who has the most talent and shows the most promise.

I think a fresh lottery pick is given more priority for playing time than borderline NBA players. Seniority is a thing, but it’s a thing with established vets and THT/NAW is the opposite of that. If either of these guys were real, established NBA players that would be one thing, but they’re not. If Doke were healthy, for example, I think he should have no priority over Kessler just because he’s had years in the league where he’s done nothing. Getting real PT isn’t the only chance you get in the NBA. What you do in practice matters. NAW is working on years of chances to prove himself.

And like I said, even if it’s close and Hardy chooses to go with “Senority”….it doesn’t really change my attitude towards Ochai. It’s still not good that Ochai is close with borderline NBA players that blatantly don’t look NBA caliber.

I don’t know that it is the other way around. Was stating another reasonable explanation.

They are bringing him along slowly by design. The guard position is much deeper for us than the center… Kessler has also done well in camp and in games from all reports. The fact that Ochai hasn’t established himself at a loaded position doesn’t bother me at all. It would be nice if he had played so well their hand was forced but not alarming at all that he hasn’t done that with a couple weeks of training camp.

I mean we are throwing Rudy Gay out there and acting like it’s all a merit based system and there aren’t other things that factor into playing time.

 

[KqWIN]

I don’t know that it is the other way around. Was stating another reasonable explanation.

They are bringing him along slowly by design. The guard position is much deeper for us than the center… Kessler has also done well in camp and in games from all reports. The fact that Ochai hasn’t established himself at a loaded position doesn’t bother me at all. It would be nice if he had played so well their hand was forced but not alarming at all that he hasn’t done that with a couple weeks of training camp.

I mean we are throwing Rudy Gay out there and acting like it’s all a merit based system and there aren’t other things that factor into playing time.

It’s not a merit based system, but I also think the fresh 1st round pick is more likely to get minutes than other young players who aren’t established at all. NAW and THT are not Rudy Gay. If they established themselves in this league in the same way I could see this argument, but they aren’t remotely close to being established vets. THT is actually younger than Ochai.

If Ochai was as good as THT and NAW (not a compliment), I think he would still be getting the minutes or at least on an even plain as them. If he was better than them, I don’t think he would be sitting behind them nor do I think that would be good strategy.

You don’t bench a young player who other young players who are worse. There’s no reason why the Ochai should have to “earn it” more than THT and NAW.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It’s not a merit based system, but I also think the fresh 1st round pick is more likely to get minutes than other young players who aren’t established at all. NAW and THT are not Rudy Gay. If they established themselves in this league in the same way I could see this argument, but they aren’t remotely close to being established vets. THT is actually younger than Ochai.

If Ochai was as good as THT and NAW (not a compliment), I think he would still be getting the minutes or at least on an even plain as them. If he was better than them, I don’t think he would be sitting behind them nor do I think that would be good strategy.

You don’t bench a young player who other young players who are worse. There’s no reason why the Ochai should have to “earn it” more than THT and NAW.

3 years is plenty established to place them in a position to get time over someone with zero nba minutes. NAW is a hard worker and super charismatic... has more "history" with the team than like half the roster... so its brief but he's established himself as a leader... he's constantly named as first one in etc. Coaches love that **** and reward it. JB was cut in part due to not having the best attitude all the time. All the stuff matters.

They both might be playing better than Ochai... or it might all be close and you roll with the guys that have 3 years of history over a rookie for now... until the rookie blows those guys away. With the type of player Ochai projects to be it isn't like its a player type that stands out in scrimmages or pickup settings. I just think the burden of proof is more on Ochai than THT or NAW.

In short my concern level is at a zero with Ochai.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I know exactly what NAW is shooting. However, if you look how he's playing, he's got the ball in his hands, he's driving into the paint and he's dishing off. He is a driver/creator. That's why he's getting minutes. It's not just because he's a nice kid. If you want to talk about nice kids, talk about Bolmaro. That dude is as friendly as your mom's puppy.

First of all you keep my mom's puppy out your damn mouf.

Second of all JB was doing that stuff and was better at it than NAW. Even with our deficiencies I think there are like 7 players I'd rather have with the ball in their hands.

 

[Eddie Zero]

How do you know it to be the other way around? The players who routinely receive more minutes than they should based on their play each year are first round draft picks. And there’s good reason for that. It’s logical to invest in the player who has the most talent and shows the most promise.

I think a fresh lottery pick is given more priority for playing time than borderline NBA players. Seniority is a thing, but it’s a thing with established vets and THT/NAW is the opposite of that. If either of these guys were real, established NBA players that would be one thing, but they’re not. If Doke were healthy, for example, I think he should have no priority over Kessler just because he’s had years in the league where he’s done nothing. Getting real PT isn’t the only chance you get in the NBA. What you do in practice matters. NAW is working on years of chances to prove himself.

And like I said, even if it’s close and Hardy chooses to go with “Senority”….it doesn’t really change my attitude towards Ochai. It’s still not good that Ochai is close with borderline NBA players that blatantly don’t look NBA caliber.

The hitch in your argument is you are apparently basing who is ahead of who on preseason playing time when fringe nba players need to prove themselves and highly efficient ncaa champions already have more of a case without ever earning a damn thing. But he should have to fight for minutes imo, it just won't be a competiion between him and those 2 at all.

 

[KqWIN]

3 years is plenty established to place them in a position to get time over someone with zero nba minutes. NAW is a hard worker and super charismatic... has more "history" with the team than like half the roster... so its brief but he's established himself as a leader... he's constantly named as first one in etc. Coaches love that **** and reward it. JB was cut in part due to not having the best attitude all the time. All the stuff matters.

They both might be playing better than Ochai... or it might all be close and you roll with the guys that have 3 years of history over a rookie for now... until the rookie blows those guys away. With the type of player Ochai projects to be it isn't like its a player type that stands out in scrimmages or pickup settings. I just think the burden of proof is more on Ochai than THT or NAW.

In short my concern level is at a zero with Ochai.

I don’t think NAW, and what he’s done in his 3 years is enough to entitle himself to playing time. I also don’t think we would just give him playing time because he’s a good guy. NAW also isn’t the only guy that is ahead of Ochai. THT was clearly ahead of him, and I don’t think it’s because of his leadership qualities either.

Neither THT and NAW are established NBA caliber players. If they were, I would entertain this idea that they are entitled to minutes, but they are not close to the standard that would make you bench a first round pick for them even if that pick is better than them.

I don’t know if concern is the right word about how I feel about this, but it’s not a good sign if he’s worse than THT and NAW or on the same level. They’re all around the same age, and I don’t think the future outlook on THT and NAW are that amazing.

Ochai was billed as an NBA ready player with a clear skillset. That’s one of the reasons why CLE drafted him. If he’s behind these guys right now it doesn’t mean his career is doomed, but he’s definitely not ahead of schedule.

The reality is that half the guys drafted in this range don’t make it anyways….so I wouldn’t necessarily say he’s behind schedule either. It’s just not a good start if you would were hoping for the higher end outcomes for Ochai.

 

[Eddie Zero]

First of all you keep my mom's puppy out your damn mouf.

Second of all JB was doing that stuff and was better at it than NAW. Even with our deficiencies I think there are like 7 players I'd rather have with the ball in their hands.

Didn't NAW get a lot of love in the draft, beyond projections as a sg, because of his ability to step up and play point guard, in his last season of college when the starter got injured?
That's what I remember being the case, and he was a decent shotter then also. As is though in the league he has not gotten better, Not just because his handles are weak for that attacking job, but he has no reliable jumper off ball right now either. So besides good positional size to play defense as a backup playmaker, and the head to make the right plays at times, he will have to have Sexton or some other attacker next to him

 

[KqWIN]

The hitch in your argument is you are apparently basing who is ahead of who on preseason playing time when fringe nba players need to prove themselves and highly efficient ncaa champions already have more of a case without ever earning a damn thing. But he should have to fight for minutes imo, it just won't be a competiion between him and those 2 at all.

Uh yeah….I will use the preseason to assess what the pecking order is. There is nothing else to go off of. Again, how else could you possibly assert that Ochai is ahead of THT and NAW?

I can’t really discern what you meant with that long run on….but I don’t think all players start fairly. Some players get entitled to minutes just because of who they are to start with. A lottery pick is going to get more of a case for minutes by default than fringe NBA players. It might not be the case against an established vet, but THT and NAW are not established vets they are fringe NBA players.

Ochai had the upper hand to begin with as a new first round pick, but he’s still behind them so far. At minimum, they are all very close on level and that is not a great association for Ochai.

 

[Eddie Zero]

I don’t think NAW, and what he’s done in his 3 years is enough to entitle himself to playing time. I also don’t think we would just give him playing time because he’s a good guy. NAW also isn’t the only guy that is ahead of Ochai. THT was clearly ahead of him, and I don’t think it’s because of his leadership qualities either.

Neither THT and NAW are established NBA caliber players. If they were, I would entertain this idea that they are entitled to minutes, but they are not close to the standard that would make you bench a first round pick for them even if that pick is better than them.

I don’t know if concern is the right word about how I feel about this, but it’s not a good sign if he’s worse than THT and NAW or on the same level. They’re all around the same age, and I don’t think the future outlook on THT and NAW are that amazing.

Ochai was billed as an NBA ready player with a clear skillset. That’s one of the reasons why CLE drafted him. If he’s behind these guys right now it doesn’t mean his career is doomed, but he’s definitely not ahead of schedule.

The reality is that half the guys drafted in this range don’t make it anyways….so I wouldn’t necessarily say he’s behind schedule either. It’s just not a good start if you would were hoping for the higher end outcomes for Ochai.

you keep saying they are ahead of him without merit, its exhausting really to see the same thing expressed in you opinion over and over. None of us knows what the plan is for this roster yet, and whatever usage minutes or lack thereof that took place in the preseason on a rebuild roster is useless for projecting the line up hierarchy going forward . imo its obvious Agbaji is a more complete off ball wing than either of those poor shooting on ball scrubs

 

[KqWIN]

you keep saying they are ahead of him without merit, its exhausting really to see the same thing expressed in you opinion over and over. None of us knows what the plan is for this roster yet, and whatever usage minutes or lack thereof that took place in the preseason on a rebuild roster is useless for projecting the line up hierarchy going forward . imo its obvious Agbaji is a more complete off ball wing than either of those poor shooting on ball scrubs

It is exhausting to repeat the same, very obvious talking points. If you want to say that the preseason rotation means nothing as far as what the rotation is and you’d rather base the rotation on something make believe, to each their own.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Didn't NAW get a lot of love in the draft, beyond projections as a sg, because of his ability to step up and play point guard, in his last season of college when the starter got injured?
That's what I remember being the case, and he was a decent shotter then also. As is though in the league he has not gotten better, Not just because his handles are weak for that attacking job, but he has no reliable jumper off ball right now either. So besides good positional size to play defense as a backup playmaker, and the head to make the right plays at times, he will have to have Sexton or some other attacker next to him

He sucks.

 

[Eddie Zero]

It is exhausting to repeat the same, very obvious talking points. If you want to say that the preseason rotation means nothing as far as what the rotation is and you’d rather base the rotation on something make believe, to each their own.

Neither NAW or THT are going to to be used nearly as much as they were in the preseason, and Ochai is used a lot more than he was for certain. Preseason rotations in fact means squat on a rebuilding team.

 

[Eddie Zero]

He sucks.

pretty much has not gotten better at all since drafted, but still in the league. I expect sans an improved jumper and or floater if he gets on ball minutes, he is playing in China next year

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I don’t think NAW, and what he’s done in his 3 years is enough to entitle himself to playing time. I also don’t think we would just give him playing time because he’s a good guy. NAW also isn’t the only guy that is ahead of Ochai. THT was clearly ahead of him, and I don’t think it’s because of his leadership qualities either.

Neither THT and NAW are established NBA caliber players. If they were, I would entertain this idea that they are entitled to minutes, but they are not close to the standard that would make you bench a first round pick for them even if that pick is better than them.

I don’t know if concern is the right word about how I feel about this, but it’s not a good sign if he’s worse than THT and NAW or on the same level. They’re all around the same age, and I don’t think the future outlook on THT and NAW are that amazing.

Ochai was billed as an NBA ready player with a clear skillset. That’s one of the reasons why CLE drafted him. If he’s behind these guys right now it doesn’t mean his career is doomed, but he’s definitely not ahead of schedule.

The reality is that half the guys drafted in this range don’t make it anyways….so I wouldn’t necessarily say he’s behind schedule either. It’s just not a good start if you would were hoping for the higher end outcomes for Ochai.

I think everything factors in... I think you are factoring in draft pedigree a bit more than I would. The other part of this equation is there are other routes to bring Ochai along. You can't put THT or NAW in the G League. You can with Ochai... and it might be a good way for him to develop for the first part of the season.

I also don't see a super high upside prospect. I think his most likely outcome is like a Justin Holiday type wing. I see no reason for him to be ahead of schedule since he had a trade/move midway through his first offseason. I think we just have a little bit of a roster crunch and they know they have other means to develop Ochai that they don't for NAW/THT. When a guy pops in camp or preseason its almost always a surprise to me... regardless of how old they are. JB was supposed to be NBA ready... had a really good preseason... and now he's got no job. I'm just not concerned at all.