Saints, Gregg Williams and Bounties

[Gyp Rosetti]

The more I hear certain ESPN analysts talk about this and how they think Goodell will react, I want to throw up.

Who cares? $1,000 bounties. $10,000 bounties. Who the hell cares? The starters are making an average of about $250,000/game or so I would guess. Does the league really think these defensive players are gonna get all excited about making some extra money that doesn't mean much to them? Do they think players are going to do anything differently on the field, like dive at a running backs knees, whiff on said dive, and watch the guy run 80 yards for a TD? In that Saints/Vikes Championship game that was referenced, I recall Favre being absolutely demolished. So? If anything against the rules took place, God knows the refs would have thrown the flag for a 15 yard penalty, thus hurting the team. This type of thing has been going league-wide for decades according to basically every retired player so who the hell cares.

Goodell making a big deal out of this will be a big mistake. Just fine said parties involved and move along.

But fining the Saints more than the Pats were for SpyGate will be a ****ing joke imo.

 

[fatchipper]

I couldn't agree with you more. This really is a non issue with me. Hell, I've seen TV segments dedicated to offensive lineman and the "contests" they hold. Chop blocks, helmet slaps, basically having a money pool for the OL that gets away with the most cheap shots during a season.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I doubt other teams don't do this too. It's not like the Saints players have any rep for being especially dirty. And maybe Williams should have upped the bounty on interceptions, because we barely got any last year.

 

[Hantlers]

I really don't think this is a big deal...like Cy said, I'm sure other teams do this too.

 

[Boondocksaint27]

I will get a small measure of guilty pleasure out of this, only because the Saints had a good game plan against the Vikes and yes, I'm a bitter fan. Especially since it looks like we won't return to playoff-land for a while.

 

[YB85]

This was a whole lot of nothing, to me. I watched the Saints and there were some times I thought they might have crossed a line but not blatantly. They are/were not the only ones doing it and to read an ESPN article that Sean Payton and the GM should be fired is ridiculous. The Patriots spying on opponents was much worse than this.

 

[candrew]

It's well known Buddy Ryan had a bounty system as head coach of The Eagles about 20 years ago.

I believe he had a standing bounty on the opposing team's kicker each game as well as other players.

 

[7StraightIsGreat]

I doubt other teams don't do this too. It's not like the Saints players have any rep for being especially dirty. And maybe Williams should have upped the bounty on interceptions, because we barely got any last year.

But unlike any other team, the Saints were under investigation by the NFL for this behavior and continued to do it after the NFL told them to stop. I'm going to go against the grain of most the posts in here and say that it is a pretty big deal. I think people are clouding the issue quite a bit. From the NFL on down to Pee Wee, big plays like QB sacks, decleaters, pancake blocks etc. are all the type of plays that are encouraged and usually seem to elicit some type of reward/praise. Hell, those type of plays are the reason why helmet stickers were invented. Some people are tying to make it sound as if those were the type of plays that the Saints were encouraging, which is not true.

Trying to knock somebody on their *** is much different than trying to knock a guy out of a game or trying to get a guy to leave the field on a cart. The Saints crossed that line and it looks like they've been caught. I'm also not going to buy the "everybody else is probably doing it" argument. I highly doubt that the majority of NFL teams have a pool of money that specifically pays out for opponent injuries.

 

[The Thriller]

I don't think bounties are part of the game.

lil competitions or incentives for causing fumbles, catching TD passes, sacks? Sure! This is common from lil league flag football to the NFL.

But bounties? Trying to injure another athlete? Money given for not only injuring someone, but having them carted off the field? Ummmmm no.

I hate TO, Randy Moss, most of the Jets, and Lebron James. But I'd never want anyone to injure them. Compete against them? Absolutely. Bump them around? Sure. But injure? Intentionally seek to earn money by ending their careers?

to me, that's a criminal element that needs to be rooted out of the game.

Intentionally trying to end someone's career and livelihood isn't a part of the sport.

And I have a feeling this is going to hurt the players' union more than anything. Since they're the ones constantly bitching about how the NFL and the greedy owners are always trying to make more money off adding more games and thus shortening their careers. Yet, the players have now proven to be actively trying to shorten/end careers with bounties.

You can't sue the NFL, moan, and complain about their negligence when you put bounties on your fellow employees' heads.

For the Jazz, I'd love for Jazz players to bump Kobe around and get physical with him and Gasol. But the moment we pull a "Bruce Bowen" and stick our feet out so that they land on them and roll their ankles, we've crossed a line. The moment we throw elbows in hopes of breaking the Masked Mambas nose again, we've crossed a line. The moment our intention isn't to get physical and defend these players, but to see them carted off the court? We've crossed a line.

Even moreso since the Saints were earning money off this nonsense.

It's a criminal element that needs to be rooted out.

I hope the Saints lose draft picks (in addition, I hope they lose Brees due to free agency), I hope Greg Williams serves at the very least, a 1 year suspension, I hope every single player involved serves fines and suspensions, and I hope their HC of the Saints serves at least a 1/2 suspension (depending on what he knew).

End this nonsense now.

Compete and win not injure to earn money. That's bush league.

 

[The Thriller]

I think every BYU fan can admit how much they despise certain Utah players. I think most Utah fans admit that they hate certain BYU players.

But I don't think anyone wants to see any player injured.

It's the old Golden Rule, do unto others as you'd have done unto you...

compete hard and physical. Injuries occur, they've part of sports. But they shouldn't be intentional. And there shouldn't be bounties.

Jonathan Vilma and some of these other players better hope that they don't become the hunted now....

Hence, why we have written and unwritten rules and laws.

If everyone is just trying to injure everyone else, the game is ruined.

 

[The Thriller]

It's well known Buddy Ryan had a bounty system as head coach of The Eagles about 20 years ago.

I believe he had a standing bounty on the opposing team's kicker each game as well as other players.

Extreme example. Buddy Ryan also punched his offensive coordinator during a game.

The Ryan family is about as classless and extreme as they come.

Rex will be fired shortly and his brother soon to follow....

Using a Buddy Ryan example is like using Bill Lambeer or Dennis Rodman for an example of what Basketball players should be like.

The NFL is different now. Players are suing the league, demanding higher pensions and health insurances to cover costs of injuries, concussions are treated VERY easily now, etc.

For the good of the game and well-being of the players, I'm down with the league dropping an A-bomb onto the Saint franchise to serve as a deterrent for this kind of behavior.

I think with more time and experience, the officiating will become better with some of these h2h calls.

Overall, I think it will improve the game, help sustain careers, and promote a better life for players after they retire.

I think this article may shed some more light on why the NFL is treating this more seriously than spygate and how things have changed since Buddy Ryan coached:

https://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/f/football/head_injuries/index.html

A 2000 study surveyed 1,090 former N.F.L. players and found more than 60 percent had suffered at least one concussion in their careers and 26 percent had had three or more. Those who had had concussions reported more problems with memory, concentration, speech impediments, headaches and other neurological problems than those who had not, the survey found.

A 2007 study conducted by the University of North Carolina's Center for the Study of Retired Athletes found that of the 595 retired N.F.L. players who recalled sustaining three or more concussions on the football field, 20.2 percent said they had been found to have depression. That is three times the rate of players who have not sustained concussions.

As scrutiny of brain injuries in football players has escalated in the past few years, with prominent professionals reporting cognitive problems and academic studies supporting a link more generally, the N.F.L. and its medical committee on concussions have steadfastly denied the existence of reliable data on the issue.

But in September 2009, a study commissioned by the N.F.L. reported that Alzheimer's disease or similar memory-related diseases appear to have been diagnosed in the league's former players vastly more often than in the national population — including a rate of 19 times the normal rate for men ages 30 through 49.

The study, which was conducted by the University of Michigan's Institute for Social Research, has not been peer-reviewed, but the findings fall into step with several recent independent studies regarding N.F.L. players and the effects of their occupational head injuries.

 

[candrew]

I think with more time and experience, the officiating will become better with some of these h2h calls.

Overall, I think it will improve the game, help sustain careers, and promote a better life for players after they retire.

I think this article may shed some more light on why the NFL is treating this more seriously than spygate and how things have changed since Buddy Ryan coached:

Give me a break. Do you really think throwing The Saints under the bus for having a bounty system is going to make all these long term health problems for NFL players disappear? This is nothing but Roger Goodell and his continuing pathetic effort to create the illusion that football can be a "safe" sport.

The reality is football is not a safe sport and never will be. It wasn't 20 years ago and it certainly isn't now. And as players, get bigger, stronger and faster its going to get less safe in the future. And that's the way the fans want it.

And as for Buddy Ryan is concerned, I got news for you: Every team in the NFL has some sort of Kangaroo Court System - maybe they're not run by the coaches but they're certainly run by the players. And they give out rewards for players who recover fumbles, score touchdowns and yes, make vicious hits on opposing players. So if you crack down on The Saints, then you're a hypocrite and you're doing nothing to address the problem unless you go after the entire underlying mentality of the league and its players.

 

[The Thriller]

Give me a break. Do you really think throwing The Saints under the bus for having a bounty system is going to make all these long term health problems for NFL players disappear? This is nothing but Roger Goodell and his continuing pathetic effort to create the illusion that football can be a "safe" sport.

The reality is football is not a safe sport and never will be. It wasn't 20 years ago and it certainly isn't now. And as players, get bigger, stronger and faster its going to get less safe in the future. And that's the way the fans want it.

And as for Buddy Ryan is concerned, I got news for you: Every team in the NFL has some sort of Kangaroo Court System - maybe they're not run by the coaches but they're certainly run by the players. And they give out rewards for players who recover fumbles, score touchdowns and yes, make vicious hits on opposing players. So if you crack down on The Saints, then you're a hypocrite and you're doing nothing to address the problem unless you go after the entire underlying mentality of the league and its players.

For one, I never said that throwing the Saints under the bus would make Football "safe." Throwing the book at them however, can act as a deterrent for this bounty behavior.

Point 2, Sports will never be 100 % safe. But placing bounties on heads? Ridiculous and completely avoidable.

Point 3, Every NFL team has some sort of Kangaroo Court System? What's that? Do you have any evidence of this to backup your opinion? Lets let facts guide our opinions and not opinions substitute for our facts.

Of course teams have rewards for fumble recoveries and touchdowns. But that's not what this is about.

 

[The Thriller]

I think jazzman summarized this up perfectly:

Trying to knock somebody on their *** is much different than trying to knock a guy out of a game or trying to get a guy to leave the field on a cart. The Saints crossed that line and it looks like they've been caught. I'm also not going to buy the "everybody else is probably doing it" argument. I highly doubt that the majority of NFL teams have a pool of money that specifically pays out for opponent injuries.

 

[Stoked]

As long as they are not making illegal hits than who cares. This is football not table tennis.

 

[//r00t 4 Jazz]

The morality of the issue aside, if they're stupid enough to leave a paper trail and stupid enough to get caught then they deserve whatever is handed down to them.

Perception vs Reality, perception will win 99.99% of the time.

 

[7StraightIsGreat]

Candrew Wrote:

....And they give out rewards for players who recover fumbles, score touchdowns and yes, make vicious hits on opposing players. So if you crack down on The Saints, then you're a hypocrite and you're doing nothing to address the problem unless you go after the entire underlying mentality of the league and its players.

Why is it so hard for some people to understand that there is a HUGE difference between offering up rewards for a TD, INT, or a good, clean, hit etc. as opposed to offering a financial incentive to injure a player to the point where he has to leave the game and/or be taken off the field on a cart? It's an apples-to-oranges argument, and a dumb one at that.

I'm not fan of Goodell, but cracking down on the Saints and/or Greg Williams does not make him a hypocrite. In fact, I would go as far as to say that it would be reckless of Goodell not to act on this information. Obviously, the Saints and Greg Williams have been under the microscope for some time. Now while I would still contest that many other teams employ this type of tactic, it doesn't matter. The Saints are the first team that the NFL has concrete evidince against in regards to this type of behavior. Of course the NFL is going to come down on them. If you're the guy caught sneaking out of work early, you're the one your boss is going to come down on. It doesn't matter if you think other employees are sneaking out as well, you're going to be the one the boss uses to make an example. That's exactly what's about to happen to the Saints.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The morality of the issue aside, if they're stupid enough to leave a paper trail and stupid enough to get caught then they deserve whatever is handed down to them.

Perception vs Reality, perception will win 99.99% of the time.

I'm guessing a former player spilled the beans.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I think every BYU fan can admit how much they despise certain Utah players. I think most Utah fans admit that they hate certain BYU players.

But I don't think anyone wants to see any player injured.

It's the old Golden Rule, do unto others as you'd have done unto you...

compete hard and physical. Injuries occur, they've part of sports. But they shouldn't be intentional. And there shouldn't be bounties.

Jonathan Vilma and some of these other players better hope that they don't become the hunted now....

Hence, why we have written and unwritten rules and laws.

If everyone is just trying to injure everyone else, the game is ruined.

Have you watched the Saints? They have never had a reputation as a dirty team. Yes, they injured Brett Farve, but I saw nothing over the line in terms of how they attacked him or anything outside of the norm.

The league fine for helmet-to-helmet hits is much higher than what the Saints were paying players for knocking someone out, so it's not like Saints players were going for illegal hits to injure players or anything of that nature. It was just an extra incentive to hit harder, which is what all coaches try to get their players to do.

 

[The Thriller]

Have you watched the Saints? They have never had a reputation as a dirty team. Yes, they injured Brett Farve, but I saw nothing over the line in terms of how they attacked him or anything outside of the norm.

The league fine for helmet-to-helmet hits is much higher than what the Saints were paying players for knocking someone out, so it's not like Saints players were going for illegal hits to injure players or anything of that nature. It was just an extra incentive to hit harder, which is what all coaches try to get their players to do.

I haven't seen them too much nor do I know anything of their reputation.

That's not important.

When it's PROVEN that they had bounties, EVERYTHING becomes tainted. Players that were injured (even by accident) could wonder whether it was because of a bounty. Retired players lose leverage against the league now that it has been proven that fellow players willingly participated in bounties... The whole integrity of the game comes under suspicion.

Playing hard is one thing. Creating bounties, incentives, with the goal of injuring someone, and having them carted off the field, is completely a different story.

Whether or not NO succeeded in achieving their bounties, isn't important. The mere fact they had them, is what's wrong.

Roger Goodell's #1 issue with this isn't going to be whether NO actually hurt someone. It's that they created bounties. Now, comes the punishments to the franchise, coaches, and players.