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Sanders is much better than Hayward

oldtimer said:
P...Rex

Wow borderline allstar. I have to respectfully disagree I watched and recorded every summer league game. He was not agressive and didn't shoot that well. He got a lot of his points shooting free throws and the end of games. He was not at all impressive. His defense will be his biggest weakness. He does not have the lateral movement to stay with Paul George let alone the kobe's of this word. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think so.
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Better watch those games again, son.
Hayward shot 62% from the field (13-21). And he was very aggressive going after rebounds and loose balls. With Sundiata "Ballhog" Gaines, it's a wonder anyone else got any touches. Hayward had ONE bad game. IMO, Gordon was one of the few looking to run any semblance of the Jazz system, coming out to take the ball, passing it quickly, then running over to his spot on the floor.

If by lack of aggression you mean that Gordon didn't chuck up a bunch of shots, then he's guilty as charged. He pretty much only took open shots. But isn't that EXACTLY what we want our players to do? There's a reason Utah is always near the top of the league in terms of FG%. The Jazz try to get the ball inside FIRST, and the wings either cut to the hoop or take high-percentage shots coming off screens.

Granted, he doesn't appear to have great range from the three. But he was deadly coming off the curl. And he has some moves to/around the hoop. He needs to work on his driving skills - at times he was a little out of control. But is any rookie a finished product? Just watch some footage of Turner or Favors. They were terrible.

BTW, our poster boy of last season, Wesley Matthews, shot 35% in summer league. He was a guy who was borderline to be INVITED to training camp.
 
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Sirkickyass said:
I think honz didn't succeed in convincing everyone as much as the sheer prospect of hope has changed the tune of many on the board. The attitude seems to be "if he was the wrong choice, well now he's my wrong choice so I might as well hope for the best."

I can't go back in time and change KOC's pick no matter how much I disagree with it. I can only hope that it turns out I'm wrong, and if that's the case I'll happily eat that crow. Don't mistake hope for validation of honz oldtimer. You know he's ready to crap the bed and change his username if it turns out Hayward looks overmatched the first month of the season.
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Way to hedge your bet there pal.
 
Many people were upset with the Hayward pick because this team was void of talent at the 4 and 5. Now that we're deeper into the offseason, the Jazz have Jefferson and I think that makes the pick of Hayward much, much different than it initially was on draft day to most people. KOC was smart enough to realize that all of the "bigs" available at 9 were projects. A big man can take 3 to 4 years to develop in the NBA if they even develop at all. It would have been awful to see KOC draft a big man who wouldn't be ready for a while and see Deron leave in the meantime.

Instead, KOC drafted what he believed was the best player available and ended up securing an already established NBA big man who's still only 25 years old. Add to that, I think Hayward will see a certain amount of success as a rookie. Initially, I think he'll get the minutes vacated by Korver. I think from the get-go Haywards all around game is going to be better than Korver at his best. This will endear him to Jerry and more minutes will follow.
 
oldtimer said:
Since my first post went over so well I thought I try another. Hayward at best is a bench role player that might get the Jazz 20 minutes and at his best get 13 pts, 4 rbs, 2 assits a game. He probably wont last 10 years in the league. Larry Sanders a big, long armed, blocking machine should have been the pick.

I just want to ask how Honz (obviously a Jazz P.R. member hired to change people minds or Hayward's brother) has been so successful convincing everyone that the Jazz made a great choice.

Rip away.
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I like your style.

~rubs chin~

Really. I like your style.
 
I like Sanders too, BUT at #9 in the entire draft? He is basically a more physically mature Jeremy Evans. Not a well-rounded basketball player.
Hayward KNOWS the game of basketball very well. What he lacks in physical prowess he'll make up for by outsmarting his opponents. OBTW, Hayward is growing more lean muscle since the end of the college season; I think we'll see more athleticism from him than we've been led to expect!
 
+1
GlassEater said:
Better watch those games again, son.
Hayward shot 62% from the field (13-21). And he was very aggressive going after rebounds and loose balls. With Sundiata "Ballhog" Gaines, it's a wonder anyone else got any touches. Hayward had ONE bad game. IMO, Gordon was one of the few looking to run any semblance of the Jazz system, coming out to take the ball, passing it quickly, then running over to his spot on the floor.

If by lack of aggression you mean that Gordon didn't chuck up a bunch of shots, then he's guilty as charged. He pretty much only took open shots. But isn't that EXACTLY what we want our players to do? There's a reason Utah is always near the top of the league in terms of FG%. The Jazz try to get the ball inside FIRST, and the wings either cut to the hoop or take high-percentage shots coming off screens.

Granted, he doesn't appear to have great range from the three. But he was deadly coming off the curl. And he has some moves to/around the hoop. He needs to work on his driving skills - at times he was a little out of control. But is any rookie a finished product? Just watch some footage of Turner or Favors. They were terrible.

BTW, our poster boy of last season, Wesley Matthews, shot 35% in summer league. He was a guy who was borderline to be INVITED to training camp.
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Glass eater

It has been a long time since anybody called me son. I like that. By the way I am re-watching the first game right now. And guess what, its not getting better. Time after time the announcers questions why Hayward is not shooting more and why he is not even in the game. I'm not talking about forcing shots, I'm talking about taking good shots or driving to the hole. 22 shots the enitre summer league. Basically he shot when he was completely wide open. I do agree that Gaines was pounding the rock way too much, but Hayward was not great. In the Indiana game he could not guard anyone. It was almost Boozer like.

If you take away Sanders first game the rest of the summer league was outstanding. Getting big Al did not remove the need for a big, shot blocker in the middle. Sanders is going to be a better player in this league than Hayward. I truly do hope that I'm proven wrong.
 
I always liked Sanders as well. Showed noticeable improvement every year at VC and has center length once he fills out. That said, we got Hayward who can still be a very good player in his own right. I noticed someone was ripping on him for just getting his points by free throws? Huh? Getting to the line = talent. It means you know how to anticipate contact and turn a potential block into a foul and 2 points. Its the reason the superstars lead the league in FT attempts. Hayward might not be super athletic or long, but he is crafty and that can go a long way in the league (ask Manu Ginobli).
 
Hayward shouldn't have been a lottery pick, but he'll probably be a nice role-player for years to come. Let's accept it and move on.
 
Sanders is going to prove to be a steal for the Bucks at #15..some of the names drafted ahead of him, Ed Davis, Pat Patterson, Paul George, these guys have high bust potential.

But the same goes for Hayward, look at the names going ahead of him - Greg Monroe, Aminu, Uodh. Same deal.

I think both will prove to be solid picks, Sanders will be a excellent defensive addition to an already solid defensive team, Hayward great for the jazz offense that lost some pieces.
 
honz said:
Sirkickyass is right. I had nothing to do with changing people's minds about Hayward. Almost nobody else liked him as a prospect or liked the pick when I was tooting his horn. The only reason people are coming around on him is because people are talking themselves into liking the pick. Let's just hope that I was right about him being a very good NBA player, eh?
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Well out of what was left I loved the pick. I think it's a bold move especially in light of acquiring AJ in free agency. I am and have been since the NCAA Tournament a big fan of Gordon. I might as well be your Vice President of the Gordon Hayward Fan Club! He's gonna surprise a lot of people down the road with how good he is now and how good he will become.
 
oldtimer said:
Glass eater

It has been a long time since anybody called me son. I like that. By the way I am re-watching the first game right now. And guess what, its not getting better. Time after time the announcers questions why Hayward is not shooting more and why he is not even in the game. I'm not talking about forcing shots, I'm talking about taking good shots or driving to the hole. 22 shots the enitre summer league. Basically he shot when he was completely wide open. I do agree that Gaines was pounding the rock way too much, but Hayward was not great. In the Indiana game he could not guard anyone. It was almost Boozer like.

If you take away Sanders first game the rest of the summer league was outstanding. Getting big Al did not remove the need for a big, shot blocker in the middle. Sanders is going to be a better player in this league than Hayward. I truly do hope that I'm proven wrong.
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*yawn* Repost this in March and see what kind of reaction you get out of this board when you do.
 
oldtimer said:
Glass eater

It has been a long time since anybody called me son. I like that. By the way I am re-watching the first game right now. And guess what, its not getting better. Time after time the announcers questions why Hayward is not shooting more and why he is not even in the game. I'm not talking about forcing shots, I'm talking about taking good shots or driving to the hole. 22 shots the enitre summer league. Basically he shot when he was completely wide open. I do agree that Gaines was pounding the rock way too much, but Hayward was not great. In the Indiana game he could not guard anyone. It was almost Boozer like.

If you take away Sanders first game the rest of the summer league was outstanding. Getting big Al did not remove the need for a big, shot blocker in the middle. Sanders is going to be a better player in this league than Hayward. I truly do hope that I'm proven wrong.
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I think you're putting way too much stock into summer league games. Sanders may very well turn out to be a great player. He was the one guy shooting up the draft boards over the last week or so. What it usually comes down to is that it takes most bigs, especially those chosen after the top-5 or so, a few years to develop. Wings can usually come in right away and contribute.

I have no idea where Sanders was on KOC's board. What we do know is the Jazz had Millsap, AK and Memo under contract - three guys who can all play PF, including one (Paul) who was 99.9% certain to be the starter. The only thing that would have changed that is if Boozer had returned (a very tiny possibility). We also know KOC had been working on the Jefferson trade since last season and had David Lee in his sights if the Jefferson deal didn't happen.I'd take Jefferson or Lee in a heartbeat over Sanders.

Yes, I think you take BPA. But if players are very close on your board, then I also think you must consider need. KOC knew that Korver was probably gone (Jazz needed the MLE to re-sign Matthews). He also knows AK is a FA next year. And although the re-signing of Matthews was a top priority, it wasn't a slam dunk (as we learned). So wing was a definite need.

So we're slamming on Hayward for NOT taking enough shots? Had he thrown up 10/per game we'd be calling him a "chucker." A lot of the criticism needs to be sent the way of Gaines and Rice. The PG's control the offense. And you don't have a lot of secondary passing from summer leaguers that happens in the Jazz system. To step into a complicated offense takes a lot of practice - and to employ an overused phrase, "basketball IQ." I suggest you watch the last game, old-timer. See how many times Hayward came around on curls, or passed the ball and then went to an open spot to maintain spacing.

Conversely, watch some of the other lottery picks, particularly wings, and see how badly they struggled. PG's can shine in summer league; they don't rely on anyone getting them the rock. And strong rebounders can excel, battling for boards and getting put-backs. I'd rather have a coach telling Gordon it's ok to (and that he should) shoot a bit more, than to have the next Morris Almond on our hands.
 
oldtimer said:
Since my first post went over so well I thought I try another. Hayward at best is a bench role player that might get the Jazz 20 minutes and at his best get 13 pts, 4 rbs, 2 assits a game. He probably wont last 10 years in the league. Larry Sanders a big, long armed, blocking machine should have been the pick.

I just want to ask how Honz (obviously a Jazz P.R. member hired to change people minds or Hayward's brother) has been so successful convincing everyone that the Jazz made a great choice.

Rip away.
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I will stop reading this thread right here and leave by saying I want to four finger chop your *** for such a ludacris assesment!
 
The one thing I like about GH is he played quite efficiently in Orlando, overall. It will be interesting to see what happens when he has the all-stars passing him the ball. I was pissed when we drafted him, but hope the guy proves me and a majority of this board wrong...
 
I remember watching Salim Stoudamire go off for 43 points in a summer league game once, just sayin'. I like Sanders, I think he can be a long-term contributor for a team as an aggressive, hustle type guy off of the bench. The thing I love about Hayward is that he has the potential to be that and so much more. He is such a smart, smooth player that will not only provide opportunities for himself by moving without the ball, but will provide opportunities for his teammates with his passing ability and court vision. He could be a perfect compliment to what we're trying to do going forward with this team. He obviously has a lot to work on, but I think what we saw in the summer league could just be the tip of the iceberg. He has the tools to become a major factor for us.
 
This is basic, but seems to be forgotten in a lot of responses:

There are different purposes for summer league play for each player/team. Gordon Hayward was drafted and signed. He is under contract. He doesn't have to prove anything extra right here and now. His job in the summer league was likely to learn the offense. I would bet that means looking to pass first. Making the choice to shoot is easy, making the right pass is much more involved. It's also very important to learn to keep your head on top of your shoulders. Big games and tight situations can get to these guys. Hayward needs to learn to think under pressure. Maybe they said "hey kid, go out there and learn to slow yourself down. These games don't matter for winning. What matters is you learn. We don't care if you pass up every shot as long as you learn the system and learn to keep your cool. Think."

Many of the other invites were playing for a contract. They need to prove why they should be signed. They don't have the luxury GH does using the time to learn an offense. They have to demonstrate ability and do it right now. They can't sit back passing up good shots just to pad someone else's scoring numbers. They need to contribute and be significant.
 
The coaches only played him about 20-25 MPG, he was the most underplayed first round pick in all of summer league most likely. Utah played their full roster each game, giving everyone minutes. Other teams where playing their first round picks 30-35 mpg, if not more. It was clear SLoan and the coaching staff didnt want Hayward to go out there and possibly risk injury. I think they just wanted him out there to see if he had a feel for the offensive system, and they wanted to see his intangibles.
 
He will be a bench player at most. Maybe a dunleavy if we are lucky. Sanders is ok but id much rather have taken luke babbit. Him and dwill would of been unstopable in the pick and roll game. Babbit will be a better pro then g.h. mark it down
 
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