Fishsticks
Banned
Please do your part and disappear. Thank You.
Sanders is much better than Hayward
- Thread starter oldtimer
- Start date
Please do your part and disappear. Thank You.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
That's why this argument is so amusing. We aren't talking UNLV. Nevada has less of a tournament history than Butler.
As of 2009 (most recent page I could find). Butler had played in 22 tournament games. That puts them in the neighborhood of Texas Tech, SMU, Oregon and Minnesota.
Mighty Nevada had 10 tournament games, joining the likes of Sienna, Ball State, Manhattan, Canisius and Lamar. Oh yeah, and Miami (FL), not really known for their bball program.
What's also impressive is Butler had a tournament record of 13-9 (and it obviously gets better with their run in 2010). As a small school, you'd expect them to always face a much higher seed, so anything near .500 would be impressive, IMO. By contrast, Nevada was 4-6.
ncoloradojazz
Banned
Hayward is better then the number 1 pick john wall just cuz his college team got further....Wac is a bigger confrence then what butler plays in.. Hayward has it some say..Really cuz he never impressed me but babbit has complete game. Hayward will be a bench player for atleast 3 years and i bet he averages no more then 10 minutes a night..Im willing to wager jus pm me
Fishsticks
Banned
LOL you cant be serious. Hayward averages more than 10 Minutes a game as a rook. If you are serious about a wage I am game.
MFree:
I'm not a troll. I have been reading this board for a long, long time and Jazz fan since the time of Kelly Tripuka and Ricky Green. I was disappointed with the pick enough to log-in and post despite the fact that I'm not very tech savy.
Watcher:
My point on Sander was that if you take away his first game, he might have been MVP of the Vegas Summer league. He was awesome the rest of the games. Hayward not so much. In my opinion Hayward's best game was the last game, because he played his best defense. Still Hayward was extremely timid and would not even take good open looks. I'm hoping that is team ball and not just a lack of confidence.
I forget who:
Yes Hayward did shot a lot of free throws, which is great. My problem with his free throws is that most came at the end of the game and not on hard drives to the hole. I give the guy credit for shooting them really, really well, unlike Gaines, but please do not look at box scores and assume Hayward played great.
Babbit fans:
My selection would have been 1 Sanders, 2. Babbit, 3. Paul George 4. Patterson, 5. Elder Hayward of the guys left. If I could have traded up, I liked Cousins, like everyone else. I don't say this for any other reason than to put my picks on the record. I broke my tv when the jazz selected Lopez over parker (just a chip). I broke my remote (completely smashed) when we selected humphries over Al Jefferson, and I cried when we selected Deron over Chris Paul (I was wrong on that). If Hayward becomes great, feel free to rip me all day. But if Sanders and Babbit turn out better than Elder Hayward I want some credit.
I'm not a troll. I have been reading this board for a long, long time and Jazz fan since the time of Kelly Tripuka and Ricky Green. I was disappointed with the pick enough to log-in and post despite the fact that I'm not very tech savy.
Watcher:
My point on Sander was that if you take away his first game, he might have been MVP of the Vegas Summer league. He was awesome the rest of the games. Hayward not so much. In my opinion Hayward's best game was the last game, because he played his best defense. Still Hayward was extremely timid and would not even take good open looks. I'm hoping that is team ball and not just a lack of confidence.
I forget who:
Yes Hayward did shot a lot of free throws, which is great. My problem with his free throws is that most came at the end of the game and not on hard drives to the hole. I give the guy credit for shooting them really, really well, unlike Gaines, but please do not look at box scores and assume Hayward played great.
Babbit fans:
My selection would have been 1 Sanders, 2. Babbit, 3. Paul George 4. Patterson, 5. Elder Hayward of the guys left. If I could have traded up, I liked Cousins, like everyone else. I don't say this for any other reason than to put my picks on the record. I broke my tv when the jazz selected Lopez over parker (just a chip). I broke my remote (completely smashed) when we selected humphries over Al Jefferson, and I cried when we selected Deron over Chris Paul (I was wrong on that). If Hayward becomes great, feel free to rip me all day. But if Sanders and Babbit turn out better than Elder Hayward I want some credit.
The knocks on Sanders are he has no post game and is unlikely to develop one. He doesn't have a faceup game. So offensively he is limited to his mid range jumper, putbacks and dunks. He is a capable weakside shotblocker but he lacks the mass to guard post players like Boozer or Al Jefferson. Finally the last concern is that he is near his ceiling as a player. I see his overall career being similar to Johan Petro's.
Babbit can shoot. And he can finish on straight line drives to the hoop. He has a fairly well developed face-up game. The concern with him is if he can improve his defense and ballhandling and become a 3. Or if he can improve his strength and post D and become a 4.
Both of these guys have average BBIQ's at best.
Hayward is definitely a 3. There are some concerns about him moving his feet on the perimeter but for a NBA 3 he had a complete offensive game. He is a good rebounder and better shotblocker than I knew. With his feet set he has a very good shot but his best attribute his BBIQ. He takes good shots. He sets up his teammates for easy shots. He gets to the free throw line. He makes his free throws when he gets there.
Lost_Jazz_Fan
Member
oldtimer, I beg to differ with you on the whole Lopez over Parker thing. At the time Lopez was rated across the entire NBA scouting scene as a better rated prospect than Tony Parker. Funny how blowing out your knee several times can take your career down a different path. Hindsight is always 20/20 my friend.
Dwill Mvp
Actually most scouts liked parker and I hated lopez. I had watched tony parker and lopez play and when I watched parker he was just so smooth with the ball and lopez always seemed to be dribbling above his head. I hated the Lopez selection. No 20-20 hindsight required.
Actually most scouts liked parker and I hated lopez. I had watched tony parker and lopez play and when I watched parker he was just so smooth with the ball and lopez always seemed to be dribbling above his head. I hated the Lopez selection. No 20-20 hindsight required.
gomretat
Well-Known Member
Not crazy about the Hayward pick but no way would I have taken Babbit. I watched him college enough to be glad we did not take him.
As for Lopez and Parker, Lopez was almost unanimously rated higher than Parker. What happened to Raul was really too bad. He could have been Steve Nash like.
Welcome OT. I was in the Salt Palace the night the Jazz won their first playoff game and then there again when they clinched game 5 against Denver. Been a huge fan ever since.
As for Lopez and Parker, Lopez was almost unanimously rated higher than Parker. What happened to Raul was really too bad. He could have been Steve Nash like.
Welcome OT. I was in the Salt Palace the night the Jazz won their first playoff game and then there again when they clinched game 5 against Denver. Been a huge fan ever since.
Just because you say so doesn't make it true. There were serious concerns about Parker's size, outside shooting ability and defense.
Lopez had similar concerns about his size but his outside shooting ability made many consider him a better prospect. At worst they were considered roughly equal.
InGameStrategy
Well-Known Member
Um, oldtimer, I invite you to cite your source--or maybe even just describe it--that scouts (or anyone) rated Parker higher.
Here's a source that said that there weren't many better Europlayers at the time. Is the omission of a mention of a teenaged Tony Parker sufficient to infer the opinion that Lopez > Monsieur Parker?
https://www.nbadraft.net/players/raul-lopez
(Here's another inference: NBAdraft.net didn't even bother profiling Tony P except putting in a photo.)
https://www.nbadraft.net/players/tony-parker
(Let me help you out, OT: looks like Parker had had a good showing in a Nike Hoop Summit.)
And how did you watch Parker on TV? Did he even televise in the United States?
In playing Devil's advocate, I'll say this: Utah had just drafted high-schooler DeShawn Stevenson the previous year, and he didn't have a particularly stellar rookie season (not that Sloan gave him many minutes to figure it out; sound familiar?), and perhaps Utah didn't want to draft yet another near-teenager in Parker.
https://www.nba.com/playerfile/deshawn_stevenson/career_stats.html
Then again, Lopez was a whopping 363 days older.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raúl_López
Utah probably thought that it was a plus that he had Real Madrid experience under his belt, and maybe they were happy that he was planning to stay in Spain for another year, given that Stockton was still around and they could fill in the backup gap with scrub journeymen.
Then again, D-Steve was a bad experience for Utah. He never materialized into more than an average SG, even after he left. I wonder if DS, under a different system, would have developed better. I'll give Utah the benefit of the doubt and say no, but I am still skeptical about Sloan's ability to develop players who don't have the discipline within. (Or, in Koufos' case, even when they do.)
I see a pattern here, though: Like with choosing Humphries over Al Jefferson (one year younger), Utah chose Lopez over Parker (one year younger). It's possible to conclude that Utah's reluctance to draft youth has hurt them.
Also, one thing that might have made Parker look better in hindsight is to play under Gregg Popovich, who I believe to be an elite evaluator and developer of talent.
InGameStrategy
I do not know how you cite the things you do, it took me a week just to get registered on this board. I remember watching espn and they were analyzing Tony Parker and Lopez. They were showing clips of each. Tony Parker's ball handling was amazing and Lopez looked like crap. He literally was dribbling above his head. I also seem to recall that Lopez had hurt his knee a year before and that concerned me. Regardless I wanted Parker.
I do not know how you cite the things you do, it took me a week just to get registered on this board. I remember watching espn and they were analyzing Tony Parker and Lopez. They were showing clips of each. Tony Parker's ball handling was amazing and Lopez looked like crap. He literally was dribbling above his head. I also seem to recall that Lopez had hurt his knee a year before and that concerned me. Regardless I wanted Parker.
GVC
Well-Known Member
And your credibility continues to erode.
Ticc
My credibility may have eroded with you, but my memory is pretty good. Here is a quote from Nbadraftexpress from 2001 regarding parker
Enjoyed an outstanding performance in the 2000 Nike Hoop Summit played at Indianapolis on April 2, 2000.
Led the International Select Team with 20 points and seven assists, adding four rebounds and two steals in 30 minutes of play.
In the game, he hit six of 11 field goal attempts and all seven of his free throw attempts.
Teammates for the game included Olumide Oyedeji (Seattle SuperSonics), Neil Fingleton (North Carolina) and 2001 NBA Draft hopefuls Bostjan Nachbar of Slovenia and Goran Cakic of Yugoslavia.
Zach Randolph of the USA Basketball Team scored 24 points to give the USA a 98-97 victory.
According to telebasket.com, he has good fundamentals and skills for the point guard position.
Quick and efficient, he is capable of penetrating to the basket and making the correct pass.
Owns an effective pull-up jumper.
My credibility may have eroded with you, but my memory is pretty good. Here is a quote from Nbadraftexpress from 2001 regarding parker
Enjoyed an outstanding performance in the 2000 Nike Hoop Summit played at Indianapolis on April 2, 2000.
Led the International Select Team with 20 points and seven assists, adding four rebounds and two steals in 30 minutes of play.
In the game, he hit six of 11 field goal attempts and all seven of his free throw attempts.
Teammates for the game included Olumide Oyedeji (Seattle SuperSonics), Neil Fingleton (North Carolina) and 2001 NBA Draft hopefuls Bostjan Nachbar of Slovenia and Goran Cakic of Yugoslavia.
Zach Randolph of the USA Basketball Team scored 24 points to give the USA a 98-97 victory.
According to telebasket.com, he has good fundamentals and skills for the point guard position.
Quick and efficient, he is capable of penetrating to the basket and making the correct pass.
Owns an effective pull-up jumper.
While Lopez was in the NBA, even after his knee injuries, he outplayed Parker.
Lopez did not hurt his knee the first time until after he was drafted.
Edgewriter
Well-Known Member
You mean:
~rubs chin, loses fingers~
(I've seen your glamor shots)
Look, if Hayward was to average the numbers the OP was saying, he would have a decent career and make 4-5 mil a year as a good role player.
This reminds me of the hype about Punky Brewster when he came onto the team. People on the board called him "Baby Jordan". I made a post telling people that their expectations were more than a bit overboard (In a much more elegant and profound manner than the op BTW) and was lambasted for it.
A few years later, I was proven right. he was a decent role player, but that is all.
Hayward on the other hand, has a different skill set. Though not as athletic as Punky Brewster, he has a much better shot and passing ability. Also he has one thing that Brewster was lacking in his first few years, and that is work ethic. The kid has put on some muscle since the spring and he is a hustler.
I am interested to see how he performs in the preseason.
Also no pillow forts as of yet, so looking good.
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One Brow
That's just crazy talk. Lopez was never better than parker. Not before the draft and not after. He just didn't have the handle. I also question anyone that says Lopez did not have a super high dribble. I watched him play for the Jazz and it bothered me a lot.
That's just crazy talk. Lopez was never better than parker. Not before the draft and not after. He just didn't have the handle. I also question anyone that says Lopez did not have a super high dribble. I watched him play for the Jazz and it bothered me a lot.
I understand that to be your opinion. Nevertheless, he outplayed Parker, at lease in the season he went 82 games.
Did it result in turnovers? Bad passes? Ill-considered opinions fed into a confirmation bias? What about it bothered you, specifically?
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
Everyone raves about Hayward's passing but while he's able, his assists numbers aren't very impressive.