Sci-Fi and Fantasy Books

[fallenchicken]

On a related note, why is it that fantasy books as a genre seem to spawn into ten-book-long series? Jordan, Martin, Goodkind, Brooks, Donaldson, Eddings, Rowling... they've all written a series of books that just goes on and on and on... and in most cases the quality has indeed deteriorated as the series wore on. And I'm sure there are many other fantasy authors I'm not thinking of at the moment.

Well, from a cynical point of view I could say that an epic fantasy series is what sells. But I don't think anything good has ever been written because, "it will sell." I think it's more because the authors above dream of writing their own epic series. Why shouldn't they? They write fantasy because Tolkien captivated their imaginations; it's only natural for them to want to recreate that.

And in some cases they succeed, Martin. And Martin is a better writer than Tolkien was... yeah I said it.

You're right though, in most cases -- Jordan is my biggest offender, they lose sight of the original narrative. I can't stand the wheel of time series past the first few books.

 

[CONAN]

On a related note, why is it that fantasy books as a genre seem to spawn into ten-book-long series? Jordan, Martin, Goodkind, Brooks, Donaldson, Eddings, Rowling... they've all written a series of books that just goes on and on and on... and in most cases the quality has indeed deteriorated as the series wore on. And I'm sure there are many other fantasy authors I'm not thinking of at the moment.

I don't think that's anything new. LOTR and Chronicles were both long and both have offshoots. Same thing with Star Wars. I think initially most authors have the material for other books (backstory for example) but the popularity of the first book determines whether they move on or not.

As for quality I don't know if that can be helped. The first time through is almost always going to be the best effort by the author.

But there's no question I think some milking definitely happens, Focker.

 

[One Brow]

On a related note, why is it that fantasy books as a genre seem to spawn into ten-book-long series? Jordan, Martin, Goodkind, Brooks, Donaldson, Eddings, Rowling... they've all written a series of books that just goes on and on and on... and in most cases the quality has indeed deteriorated as the series wore on. And I'm sure there are many other fantasy authors I'm not thinking of at the moment.

I would think part of it is the investment of time you've already made in creating a world, characters, a system for magic, etc. How much of Tolkien's world made it into the Hobbit and the LOTRs? How many more novels could have been made from it?

 

[AtheistPreacher]

As for quality I don't know if that can be helped. The first time through is almost always going to be the best effort by the author.

But there's no question I think some milking definitely happens, Focker.

With the caveat, of course, that the first book in a long series can actually be a little rough. I take Goodkind's Sword of Truth series as an example of this... the first book was just a little awkward in many ways. Eddings was the same way with the Belgariad... I just didn't think book one was all that great. In both cases, book two was actually better. So there can be a gradual rise in quality in some cases... but I think we all agree that after a while a subsequent dropoff seems inevitable. Sword of Truth became almost intolerable for me around book seven... although that may have something to do with the increasing intrusion of Goodkind's ridiculous political allegory into the story.

Just as an aside, I think Eddings actually escapes from this phenomenon somewhat... but only because the books seldom strive for deep emotional connections with characters in the first place. Eddings' books are the definition of "light reading," so they seem to suffer less from a deterioration of quality as the author strives to maintain dramatic tension... because in Eddings' case, there really isn't that much tension to maintain.. the characters within the books themselves are constantly making biting and sarcastic remarks about how ridiculous the narrative's world actually is.

Maybe that's just me, though...

 

[CONAN]

With the caveat, of course, that the first book in a long series can actually be a little rough. I take Goodkind's Sword of Truth series as an example of this... the first book was just a little awkward in many ways. Eddings was the same way with the Belgariad... I just didn't think book one was all that great. In both cases, book two was actually better. So there can be a gradual rise in quality in some cases... but I think we all agree that after a while a subsequent dropoff seems inevitable. Sword of Truth became almost intolerable for me around book seven... although that may have something to do with the increasing intrusion of Goodkind's ridiculous political allegory into the story.

Just as an aside, I think Eddings actually escapes from this phenomenon somewhat... but only because the books seldom strive for deep emotional connections with characters in the first place. Eddings' books are the definition of "light reading," so they seem to suffer less from a deterioration of quality as the author strives to maintain dramatic tension... because in Eddings' case, there really isn't that much tension to maintain.. the characters within the books themselves are constantly making biting and sarcastic remarks about how ridiculous the narrative's world actually is.

Maybe that's just me, though...

Don't even get me started on Eddings. What people like about RR Martin is that he has no problems killing off the good guys. Eddings won't kill off anyone. His good guys are flawless superheros. When I buy books I used to buy the whole series. Eddings and Orsen Scott Card cured me of that. Craptastic.

 

[gregbroncs]

I would think part of it is the investment of time you've already made in creating a world, characters, a system for magic, etc. How much of Tolkien's world made it into the Hobbit and the LOTRs? How many more novels could have been made from it?

This is a great point. Even Raymond Feist and Robbin Hobb use the same world to base their stories in. Though they call them different trilogies they are mostly written based on the same world. It could also be the familiarity of the writer with the world they have created.

 

[AtheistPreacher]

Don't even get me started on Eddings. What people like about RR Martin is that he has no problems killing off the good guys. Eddings won't kill off anyone. His good guys are flawless superheros. When I buy books I used to buy the whole series. Eddings and Orsen Scott Card cured me of that. Craptastic.

Well, yeah, if you hate him to begin with then a drop-off or lack of it isn't going to matter for you. But for people who do like him, I don't think either the Belgariad or Malloreon really get any worse as they go on... probably because they're self-admittedly formulaic and largely the same. I admit, I feel kinda dirty reading Eddings, because it really is mindless... no one said it was great literature, even for the genre. But what can I say... it entertains me.

 

[CONAN]

Well, yeah, if you hate him to begin with then a drop-off or lack of it isn't going to matter for you. But for people who do like him, I don't think either the Belgariad or Malloreon really get any worse as they go on... probably because they're self-admittedly formulaic and largely the same. I admit, I feel kinda dirty reading Eddings, because it really is mindless... no one said it was great literature, even for the genre. But what can I say... it entertains me.

The whole genre is mindless to me. And it's funny I can buy into the magic and elves and such but I can't buy into the good guys never taking any losses or having flaws.

Plenty to like about Eddings. Not saying he's a terrible writer. But that one theme in all his books just wrecks it for me.

 

[Gameface]

On a related note, why is it that fantasy books as a genre seem to spawn into ten-book-long series? Jordan, Martin, Goodkind, Brooks, Donaldson, Eddings, Rowling... they've all written a series of books that just goes on and on and on... and in most cases the quality has indeed deteriorated as the series wore on. And I'm sure there are many other fantasy authors I'm not thinking of at the moment.

Because they're creating an entire universe to explore. Books about every-day people in an every-day world are over once the main character's conflict is resolved. In sci-fi/fantasy the author has to create a lot of the universe even if most of it never makes it into his/her finished work. He/she probably feels that there's a lot left over that could be a story in its own right.

 

[TroutBum]

Series that got better over time:

The Dark Tower
Harry Potter
Lord of the Rings
The Brothers

Every 1st book in those series' were rough. On the flip side, I loved, "Wizards First Rule". Go figure. I stopped reading Goodkind in the middle of book 7, and haven't picked it back up, nor will I.

 

[LogGrad98]

I agree with trout on all that except the Dark Tower. For me the series got worse and worse. I mean through the 6th book it was fun, but I think he expanded the universe out so much that he had story arcs going that he could not adequately close off. The 7th book felt rushed and faked to me and the ending was a cliche of epic magnitude. Yeah yeah it fit with the theme of the turning wheel, but he closed off so many loose ends so abruptly and falsely that by the time he got to the tower I was just reading to get it over with. Never have I seen such a well-thought-out villain so emasculated and disempowered as a ploy to get to the end.

 

[TroutBum]

I agree with trout on all that except the Dark Tower. For me the series got worse and worse. I mean through the 6th book it was fun, but I think he expanded the universe out so much that he had story arcs going that he could not adequately close off. The 7th book felt rushed and faked to me and the ending was a cliche of epic magnitude. Yeah yeah it fit with the theme of the turning wheel, but he closed off so many loose ends so abruptly and falsely that by the time he got to the tower I was just reading to get it over with. Never have I seen such a well-thought-out villain so emasculated and disempowered as a ploy to get to the end.

I will agree that the demise of The Crimson King was weak, but the ending was FAR from cliche. I don't know about you, but I was shocked when I read it, and a little pissed. One of my favorite endings of a book.

 

[sirkickyass]

Series that got better over time:

Harry Potter

I maintain Book #5 is the best of the series with an extreme quality drop-off after that point, perfectly captured by 200+ pages of camping in Book #7.

As far as Sci-Fi authors, no one's giving any love to this guy?

Many of his books/stories are easily classifiable as science fiction (Sirens of Titan being a prime example) and many of his books take place in alternate timelines (Galapagos).

Plus, he just published another posthumous collection.

 

[TroutBum]

^ I thought that was Jim Croce.

 

[LogGrad98]

^ I thought that was Jim Croce.

It is...Vonnegut is his nom de plume. I mean come on, is anyone really name Vonnegut?

 

[PearlWatson]

I maintain Book #5 is the best of the series with an extreme quality drop-off after that point, perfectly captured by 200+ pages of camping in Book #7.

No kidding.

 

[gregbroncs]

Thought I would revive this thread.

I have been reading Brandon Sanderson lately. (He's the guy completing the series for Robert Jordan)

I really like this author. Elantris was a really good read. I am now reading the mistborn trilogy and it's very entertaining. These books really move. Lots of action keep me interested throughout and very well written.

Unfortunately he does not have many books out yet. But I would highly recommend these books for anybody into this genre. For me they are right up there with Robin Hobb and Terry Brooks. Two of my favorite authors.

 

[Archie Moses]

I'm currently reading The Court of the Air while I'm still on my steampunk high. After this book, I plan on reading Camera Obscura.

BTW, I highly recommend reading The Gates by John Connolly. One of my favorite books I've read the last couple of years. It's short, but hilarious and witty. The sequel just came out as well, Hell's Bells. I'm going to read that as soon as possible.

 

[AtheistPreacher]

Thought I would revive this thread.

I have been reading Brandon Sanderson lately. (He's the guy completing the series for Robert Jordan)

I really like this author. Elantris was a really good read. I am now reading the mistborn trilogy and it's very entertaining. These books really move. Lots of action keep me interested throughout and very well written.

Unfortunately he does not have many books out yet. But I would highly recommend these books for anybody into this genre. For me they are right up there with Robin Hobb and Terry Brooks. Two of my favorite authors.

My roommate read some stuff by Sanderson and really liked him. I'm sure I'll get around to him eventually, I've just got too much stacked up right now.

BTW, I can't remember if I posted this already, but here's a great back-and-forth interview between Sanderson and Patrick Rothfuss (Name of the Wind): https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1000661941. It's long but quite entertaining.

 

[gregbroncs]

My roommate read some stuff by Sanderson and really liked him. I'm sure I'll get around to him eventually, I've just got too much stacked up right now.

BTW, I can't remember if I posted this already, but here's a great back-and-forth interview between Sanderson and Patrick Rothfuss (Name of the Wind): https://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1000661941. It's long but quite entertaining.

I think you will like his books. Just based on some of the ones I read on recommendation from you.