Seeing AL Objectively - SLCdunk article

[NAOS]

Not true. Look what happens when you surround Jefferson with quality players (such as Millsap) who can shoot & execute. Jefferson doesn't need the ball to be a highly effective weapon. Maximizing Jefferson to me would mean using him as a distraction so other players could get high % shots. The defense would be better suited to control transition too. But that requires players who are capable of scoring one on one, reading, & timing cuts & screens.

NAOS, you may remember me asking for Corbin to utilize this exact last play just prior to the SAS blowout.

I expect you to lead the ANTI-CORBIN crowd if our offense is as flat and one-dimensional as it was last year.

BTW, I don't expect someone to be blanketing Millsap when he's standing at the 3-pt line.

I also don't expect there to be precision game planning during the regular season, when they should just play the "let Al beat us" motif.

 

[theNBAnerd]

Jefferson is responsible for most of Millsap's scoring efficiency. If Sap were the one double teamed, leaving Jefferson man to man post play, then Jefferson would shoot 60+ % & Sap <40%.


Play 1: Jefferson double teamed, allowing Millsap prime scoring position from the block.
Play 2: Jefferson assists to Millsap.
Play 3: Jefferson defers to Millsap's better position. Nice move & score by Sap, horrible help d by MIA.
Play 4: Jefferson double teamed with triple team coming after Sap gets the ball. Nice move by Millsap for a semi-off balance shot.
Play 5: Williams make an incredible pass. Sap layup. "& how much better does Deron Williams make Paul Millsap?"
Play 6: Designed play. Jefferson assists the lob layup.
Play 7: Deron Williams collapses 4 defenders in & assists Sap's layup.
Play 8: Right place right time. Jefferson screens for Sap cleanup.
Play 9: Good team execution. Sap layup.
Play 10: Over the top of PnR focus on D-Will, help defense can't leave Jefferson to cover Millsap, but he get's the stat.
Play 11: Jefferson & D-Will double teams allows Sap an open jumper.
Play 12: Millsap passes up a nice assisted jumper from Jefferson to drive & score.
Play 13: PnR with Jefferson leaves nobody to guard Sap. Open jumper again.
Play 14: Ilgauskus leaves Millsap on the baseline with the ball to double team Jefferson, leaving lane wide open for Millsap.
Play 15: Nice off ball read by Sap & assist by AK for easy layup.
Play 16: Poor defense leads to Millsap's man covering CJ, who passes to wide open Sap for a layup.
Play 17: Double team Williams, leaves Millsap wide open.
Play 18: Another wide open 3.
Play 19: Another 3. Nice shot.
Play 20: Hero

i briefly thought about responding to each of those 20 plays and telling you how what you're seeing and what you're calling it don't exactly line up, but then i'm going to be in another point-for-point battle that lasts several pages. suffice it to say that there is a huge difference between actively double-teaming and just packing it in the paint. in plays 1, 4, 11, etc., they are not "double-teaming" al... their perimeter players (on both sides) are simply sagging in to create compression in the paint. calling some of those defensive formations "double-teams" is absolutely incorrect.

but that isn't even really why i've been on this summer-long paul>al tirade. i'm on this summer-long tirade because, in pretty all of those clips, paul is doing things that AL SIMPLY CANNOT DO. doesn't have the skill set. doesn't matter if paul (or derrick, or whoever) was getting quintuple-teamed, al doesn't have the versatile scoring ability, the moves, the willingness to go into traffic, or the knowledge to use his strength that paul has.

 

[theNBAnerd]

We may have gone so far down the rabbit hole of the Jefferson-Millsap debate that it seems like the Millsap crowd might be arguing that he's capable of being the anchor of the offense. That's definitely not what I'm saying. Millsap is a great second option. Jefferson knows one way to play, and that's low left blockism. In other words, he, too, isn't fit to anchor an offense that has a chance of contending.

it might sound like that's what i'm arguing, but it's not. i'm just simply pointing out that if al's possessions were divided up and given to paul, favors and hayward, our team offensive efficiency would actually go UP.

in paul's case, i think he's a unique player in a way that makes his exact quality hard to nail down. but no, he's not going to be the best player on a title team.

 

[franklin]

I expect you to lead the ANTI-CORBIN crowd if our offense is as flat and one-dimensional as it was last year.

Pretty cumbersome expectations don't you think? Besides, you all call it trolling when I wear my emotions on my shoulder. You'll know the second I get frustrated with Corbin or anyone else's abilities. I aired enough anti-Corbin tirades after that 4 O.T. game where he refused to sub out exhausted players who looked like they had one foot in the grave.

BTW, I don't expect someone to be blanketing Millsap when he's standing at the 3-pt line.

That was only one of five & I doubt you're saying turning their backs to a player of Millsap's caliber is okay.

I also don't expect there to be precision game planning during the regular season, when they should just play the "let Al beat us" motif.

Are you saying it's as simple as not double teaming Al or what? That's deathwish strategy. Corbin would adjust the sets for top notch transition d too.

 

[franklin]

i briefly thought about responding to each of those 20 plays and telling you how what you're seeing and what you're calling it don't exactly line up, but then i'm going to be in another point-for-point battle that lasts several pages. suffice it to say that there is a huge difference between actively double-teaming and just packing it in the paint. in plays 1, 4, 11, etc., they are not "double-teaming" al... their perimeter players (on both sides) are simply sagging in to create compression in the paint. calling some of those defensive formations "double-teams" is absolutely incorrect.

but that isn't even really why i've been on this summer-long paul>al tirade. i'm on this summer-long tirade because, in pretty all of those clips, paul is doing things that AL SIMPLY CANNOT DO. doesn't have the skill set. doesn't matter if paul (or derrick, or whoever) was getting quintuple-teamed, al doesn't have the versatile scoring ability, the moves, the willingness to go into traffic, or the knowledge to use his strength that paul has.

You're smart enough to post insightful posts. Why don't you?

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

I never get the credit I deserve damn it! If you guys were all my bitches, you'd be in the kitchen makin me sammiches and bringin me nattylights (except you wes)

Thanks bro. You're one sexy bitch./

 

[Dr. Jones]

Thanks bro. You're one sexy bitch./

Having your way with the board grams, bro. Strong.

 

[billyshelby]

that's what everybody has assumed all throughout paul's career... only guess what... his attempts per 36 and his usage have climbed year-to-year all except once, and yet his TS% and eFG% have been remarkably consistent. his point per shot has been between 1.23 and 1.41 all six years in the league. his TS% by year is 57, 55, 58, 57, 58, 55.

i get all the reasons why people assume that "paul can't maintain his efficiency with more attempts," but he has defied that logic his entire career.

Quantity of shots does not equate to being able to create shots. Sap has definitely increased his quantity of shots by increasing his role in the offense, not just working the glass like he did when he came into the league. He's got a nice step back, but his ability as a post option is very limited. That's fine next to Al, but lined up next to someone else who is limited in the post we'll have problems. Did you see what happened last year when Favors and Kanter were lined up together?

 

[billyshelby]

Not true. Look what happens when you surround Jefferson with quality players (such as Millsap) who can shoot & execute. Jefferson doesn't need the ball to be a highly effective weapon. Maximizing Jefferson to me would mean using him as a distraction so other players could get high % shots. The defense would be better suited to control transition too. But that requires players who are capable of scoring one on one, reading, & timing cuts & screens.

NAOS, you may remember me asking for Corbin to utilize this exact last play just prior to the SAS blowout.

Pretty much agree with this entirely. When you look at our offense last year, we scored so rarely on cuts. The anti-Al crowd likes to pretend he was missing all these cutters, or the more insane arguments skew toward guys not cutting just because Al got the ball (that's YMCA logic.)

The reality is we had: Hayward in his first year as a starter (a terrible cutter to this point in his career, but clearly trying to "be in the right place" so much that he was never a great option); Bell (a guy who even if he's open it doesn't make sense to pass it to him, though hardly ever cut except to go through the motions on a play); and Harris/Earl, guys who practically aren't options at all.

I've got gripes with the way we set up the offense, but I don't know how anyone thinks we had good cutting options last year, much less that we had a lot of cutters getting ignored.

 

[NAOS]

Are you saying it's as simple as not double teaming Al or what? That's deathwish strategy. Corbin would adjust the sets for top notch transition d too.

I'd tell you how I would beat a Jefferson-led Jazz team, but Popovich just wrote the ****ing Bible.

*Hardcore denying the entry pass; make Utah take 10 seconds to get into its offense
*Send an array of double teams (from different places, at different times) at Jefferson; he doesn't catch on very quickly
*You should make Al catch it 12-15 feet from the basket, and if you do (and if you make them take 10 seconds to get it to him there), then just let Al try to beat you from that spot; in other words, no double.
*final note: Utah doesn't have many more ways of getting into an offensive set.

 

[NAOS]

*oh yeah: when Al is on defense PnR him to death. Lick your chops.

 

[franklin]

*You should make Al catch it 12-15 feet from the basket

I'll take this one for now. Look back to those screenshots I posted & think about how to get Millsap wide open. Or anyone else. Sap had clear 3 point assist oportunities on each of those plays but chose to keep it because he knew he had an excellent chance of closing. Doubling Jeffersack does wonders *on offense. I wonder what Sloan would have to say about the other end.

 

[GVC]

Jefferson is responsible for most of Millsap's scoring efficiency. If Sap were the one double teamed, leaving Jefferson man to man post play, then Jefferson would shoot 60+ % & Sap <40%.

Play 1: Jefferson double teamed, allowing Millsap prime scoring position from the block.
Play 2: Jefferson assists to Millsap.
Play 3: Jefferson defers to Millsap's better position. Nice move & score by Sap, horrible help d by MIA.
Play 4: Jefferson double teamed with triple team coming after Sap gets the ball. Nice move by Millsap for a semi-off balance shot.
Play 5: Williams make an incredible pass. Sap layup. "& how much better does Deron Williams make Paul Millsap?"
Play 6: Designed play. Jefferson assists the lob layup.
Play 7: Deron Williams collapses 4 defenders in & assists Sap's layup.
Play 8: Right place right time. Jefferson screens for Sap cleanup.
Play 9: Good team execution. Sap layup.
Play 10: Over the top of PnR focus on D-Will, help defense can't leave Jefferson to cover Millsap, but he get's the stat.
Play 11: Jefferson & D-Will double teams allows Sap an open jumper.
Play 12: Millsap passes up a nice assisted jumper from Jefferson to drive & score.
Play 13: PnR with Jefferson leaves nobody to guard Sap. Open jumper again.
Play 14: Ilgauskus leaves Millsap on the baseline with the ball to double team Jefferson, leaving lane wide open for Millsap.
Play 15: Nice off ball read by Sap & assist by AK for easy layup.
Play 16: Poor defense leads to Millsap's man covering CJ, who passes to wide open Sap for a layup.
Play 17: Double team Williams, leaves Millsap wide open.
Play 18: Another wide open 3.
Play 19: Another 3. Nice shot.
Play 20: Hero

How much of this is serious? Of the serious portion, how much is a direct consequence of a recent head injury?

The bold isn't worth addressing. As for your description of the plays in the posted video:

Play 1: Lebron sagging off AK, Bosh gambling on the pass from Raja (that is, AJ is not being double teamed). Millsap finishes over Joel Anthony helping off Jefferson
Play 2: Jefferson assists to Millsap. Spot on. That's a rare play for Jefferson for two reasons: 1) Jeff generally holds the ball long enough to let the defense set, minimizing the space available to cutters; 2) Jefferson has only shown a consistent ability to make passes to the perimeter on the strong side with his back to the basket.
Play 3: Jefferson defers to Millsap's better position. Nice move & score by Sap, horrible help d by MIA. Defers isn't how I'd describe the play. Paul does a better job facilitating from the high post than Jefferson. This high low play, however, was executed very well by Jefferson.
Play 4: There is no double team on this play either (certainly not a triple team). The Heat wings are sagging off the Jazz wings, Ronnie Price and rookie Gordo (er...); Udonis is going way under the screen, giving Paul the deep 2 if he wants it.
Play 5: Skipped a nice iso play by Sap for some reason. Then the nice play by Deron. Paul does a good job sliding into a spot where Deron can make the pass.
Play 6: Another nice high-low executed by Jefferson. Sloan certainly was trying to run more through Jefferson in the high post at the start of the 10/11 season.
Play 7: Again, discounting Paul's ability to be in the right place, helping create an opportunity for Deron. Deron with the pretty play.
Play 8: Right place right time. Jefferson screens for Sap cleanup: Is Sap or Jefferson in the right place at the right time here? I'd argue a bit of both (that's a screen?)
Play 9: Good team execution. Sap layup: Hopefully the coaching staff spends some time this season trying to get the Jazz to set half decent screens occasionally.
Play 10: Over the top of PnR focus on D-Will, help defense can't leave Jefferson to cover Millsap, but he get's the stat: It looks like Joel is expecting Lebron to help here.
Play 11: Again, there is no double team on Jefferson here. Bosh overplays Deron on the PnR, and both Wade and Haslem help hard (letting AK run through).
Play 12: More Jefferson from the high post. He does a much better job passing with the game in front of him than he does with the game behind him. Maybe Corbin uses these sets more next season. They were nowhere to be found last year.
Play 13: PnR with Jefferson leaves nobody to guard Sap. Open jumper again: Does anyone else miss Deron watching this video?
Play 14: Again, no double team on Jefferson. James Jones was helping on Jefferson until Haslem could switch back onto Millsap (there was a momentary double on Millsap, even, and Ilgauskas left too early)
Play 15: Nice off ball read by Sap & assist by AK for easy layup: One of those brilliantly dangerous Ak passes.
Play 16: Some really poor defensive rotations by Miami in this video.
Play 17: Not really a double team. Miami hedging on the PnR, figuring there's no reason to overplay Sap from 25 feet.
Play 18: Another wide open 3.
Play 19: Another 3. Nice shot.
Play 20: Hero

 

[GVC]

Your posted pics and analysis are also pretty ****ing self serving. Sagging off perimeter players, especially those playing on the weak side from a player with his back to the basket on the low block, does not constitute a double team. Jefferson hasn't yet shown an ability to pass to players who aren't in front of him.

Unfortunately, the casual/ignorant/stupid basketball fan is prone to viewing the game as 5 simultaneous one-on-one battles. Most successful teams play tough, team D, and learn to leverage defenses through pace control, spacing, and ball and player movement (or elite athleticism...). It is for these reasons that I have trouble believing a contender can be built around Big Al.

Being able to get consistent buckets in the half court, after the defense is set is extremely valuable, and Al does an admirable job doing so. I worry, however, that Al being perhaps the slowest player in transition in the NBA (can anyone find video evidence of Al exceeding "light jog" speed in a Jazz uniform?), and having a tendency to hold the ball until the defense is set upon receiving it on the low block negates some potential fast break and easy/early buckets for the Jazz. To be fair, the Jazz were among the leaders in fast break points last season (Devin, Gordo and Millsap are all comfortably above average in transition at their respective positions).

I actually thought Al's team D was improved at the start of last season. The PnR was still a trial, but he was doing a good job sliding over to try to take charges in the early going. His D got progressively worse as the season wore on, and Al seemed to lose interest entirely from April onward.

I think reasonable people can disagree about Jefferson's value. I think Jefferson is good enough to be the centerpiece of teams fighting for homecourt advantage in the first round of the playoffs. Perhaps, if he were to play next to an elite help defending big, at least 3 elite transition players, and at least 37%+ 3-pt shooters, he could be the offensive centerpiece of a contender in a down year. If you could get Jefferson to accept a Dallas-era Antawn Jamison role, being a scorer off the bench, playing 26-28 minutes per game, he could be a key player on a championship team (I actually think this is where he fits best, especially considering his fatigue issues).

The problem is that Jefferson has not shown an ability to be a good complementary/role player. Paul has. If Jefferson were more dynamic or efficient, I might be on board. If he could be signed for < $10mm and used off the bench, likewise. Paul is going to contribute in all facets of the game, regardless of the system run. He's the sort of player who feeds off smart players, making them, and by extension the team, better in the process.

 

[GVC]

The anti-Al crowd likes to pretend he was missing all these cutters, or the more insane arguments skew toward guys not cutting just because Al got the ball (that's YMCA logic.)

More reductionist ******** from billyshelby (shocking). Cutting is a hell of a lot less effective after the defense is set, and Al is pretty ****ing slow making decisions with the ball in his hands.

 

[franklin]

A little pissed off today GVC?

You guys continue to skip over the value of Al Jefferson drawing so much attention when the Jazz try to get into the post set. You keep complaining about Jefferson taking too damn long to get into the offense but fail to account for the other four players on the floor with him. If Jefferson is taking that long then it's there job to adjust/cut/screen/PnR there way into easy shots. Look at those screen shots again & see exactly how Millsap gets easy looks.

And it's nice too see you bitch about Jefferson's lack of passing ability right after watching a clip of him facilitating multiple Millsap layups. Talk about blinded by hate.

 

[GVC]

Did you not read either of my posts, are you just trolling or are you a complete ****ing moron?

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

Did you not read either of my posts, are you just trolling or are you a complete ****ing moron?

There's usually four options when it comes to multiple-choice. I only see three.

 

[GVC]

There's usually four options when it comes to multiple-choice. I only see three.

It's probably safe to assume frank's been drinking.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

It's probably safe to assume frank's been drinking.

Does a bear **** in the woods?