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Shaq

Handlogten's Heros said:
He shot 38% from 3 and had a TS percentage of 56% which is league average... if those percentages hold up he will be close to league average. His scoring volume and assist volume are pretty average... like I'm not really super concerned with your definition of average... I'm more concerned with what average really is.

The fact that he isn't going to score in the midrange is not a bad thing at all imo. You don't want role players shooting midrange shots... He gets over half his attempts at the rim which is really damn good... the fact that he finishes at a 58% clip isn't perfect... but I'll trade Shaq attempts at the rim at 58% over your Mudiay midrangers at 41% because of math.

If the offense isn't average then he's still worth 15 minutes a night because of what he can do defensively and chasing down loose balls. He's a do **** player and we had none of those last year and it showed.
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How dare you throw off KqWIN’s unnecessary, homespun wet blanket!!
 
Noticed a couple of things from checking the Bulls boards/articles on Shaq:

- An article that talked of Shaq aspiring to reach Royce O'Neale heights (it didn't really see him as a higher ceiling/upgrade type of player)
- A comment (or actually multiple, I believe) that urged Jazz fans to view the acquisition of Shaq as like re-acquiring Exum (basically really good defensively in certain [slightly different] ways at their best, but don't expect much offensively)

So I think we'd be better off tempering our hopes. Shaq's biggest flaw is his offense, and that has made him only marginally playable throughout his career. Bulls fans love his defense but generally were not buying the offense (they didn't buy the shot and felt the non-shot aspects were just meh). They felt last year was the product of small sample size plus one hot streak. If the improvement in his shot turns out to be real, we have a steal, but Bulls' fans wouldn't be betting on that. So maybe let's just appreciate him for what he is: a high-quality defender best employed situationally.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
He shot 38% from 3 and had a TS percentage of 56% which is league average... if those percentages hold up he will be close to league average. His scoring volume and assist volume are pretty average... like I'm not really super concerned with your definition of average... I'm more concerned with what average really is.

The fact that he isn't going to score in the midrange is not a bad thing at all imo. You don't want role players shooting midrange shots... He gets over half his attempts at the rim which is really damn good... the fact that he finishes at a 58% clip isn't perfect... but I'll trade Shaq attempts at the rim at 58% over your Mudiay midrangers at 41% because of math.

If the offense isn't average then he's still worth 15 minutes a night because of what he can do defensively and chasing down loose balls. He's a do **** player and we had none of those last year and it showed.
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Well again, I'm not allowing the 19/20 season to form my entire opinion. It was so few minutes and small volume. His 3 point percentage in particular, I'm going to need a lot more to believe that because there is so much more evidence that suggest he's one of the worst shooters in the league. And that shouldn't be a surprise, it should be the expectation because he's been a horrible shooter since college.

I also like that he doesn't shoot mid range shots. His shot distribution is good, especially because he's a limited player. He's adding fuel to the fire by doing things he's bad at, but he is bad at them. Watching him play and looking at all the data points available, I just don't see him as an average offensive player. I think he's probably on the low end of everything besides getting to the rim. His ball handling and playmaking skills are at a level where I think it should disappear, just like his mid range.

But that's fine for who he is and what we're paying. He doesn't have to be average on offense to be a useful piece, totally agree. I wanted him badly, but I expected him to be awful on offense. I like Niang and I know he's awful on defense.
 
KqWIN said:
Explain...I mean, if we're going off his 19/20 season alone sure...But I'm am very skeptical of doing analysis on <500 minutes. Especially when we have much more info.
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Exum just ****ing sucks. When it comes right down to it, he is a ghost of a player. Once in a while, he’ll haunt the arena with some production against garbage teams, in garbage time, or when totally ignored. If he’s even healthy. Met with the slightest resistance in the scant opportunities he sees the floor, he collapses (physically or psychologically). God bless him, it makes sense that he is terrified of the slightest bump. But he can’t be relied upon for a single thing. To compound, he hasn't improved his basketball skill in any way since he was drafted.

So yeah, even if Shaq sucks at shooting, at least he won’t randomly self-destruct and his entire game isn’t hampered by that fear. Comparing Shaq to Exum in any facet is to compare Shaq to nothing.
 
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NUMBERICA said:
Exum just ****ing sucks. When it comes right down to it, he is a ghost of a player. Once in a while, he’ll haunt the arena with some production against garbage teams, in garbage time, or when totally ignored. If he’s even healthy. Met with any resistance at all in the scant opportunities he sees the floor, he collapses at the faintest sign of resistance. God bless him, it makes sense that he is terrified of the slightest bump. But he can’t be relied upon for a single thing.

So yeah, even if Shaq sucks at shooting, at least he won’t randomly self-destruct and his entire game isn’t hampered by that fear.
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Haha. I can see what you're saying. Watching Exum play is in it's own category of confusion and frustration. Haralabob called him a baby deer, and that's a good way to sum up how he plays offense.

I wouldn't say Shaq has the same mental blockers, but he's also just not that gifted of an offensive player. He gets to the rim well, not great when he gets there, but he still gets there. His passing and decisions leave a lot to be desired...and yeah, his shooting over his career makes him one of the worst in the league.
 
KqWIN said:
Well again, I'm not allowing the 19/20 season to form my entire opinion. It was so few minutes and small volume. His 3 point percentage in particular, I'm going to need a lot more to believe that because there is so much more evidence that suggest he's one of the worst shooters in the league. And that shouldn't be a surprise, it should be the expectation because he's been a horrible shooter since college.

I also like that he doesn't shoot mid range shots. His shot distribution is good, especially because he's a limited player. He's adding fuel to the fire by doing things he's bad at, but he is bad at them. Watching him play and looking at all the data points available, I just don't see him as an average offensive player. I think he's probably on the low end of everything besides getting to the rim. His ball handling and playmaking skills are at a level where I think it should disappear, just like his mid range.

But that's fine for who he is and what we're paying. He doesn't have to be average on offense to be a useful piece, totally agree. I wanted him badly, but I expected him to be awful on offense. I like Niang and I know he's awful on defense.
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I think you are making the gap between awful and average too thin. He is a much better defensive player than an offensive player... The shooting might end up being bad but guys like Torrey Craig still survive in the NBA and Torrey Craig is not allowed to dribble. Getting to the rim as much as Shaq does puts him close to league average. Spacing is created by guys being able to shoot but another issue is if a guy can catch and dribble you need to cut off that space before they get downhill. If they flat out ignore him out there he will shoot over 35%... all we
Need is for them to have to close out to him and that creates an advantage for him.

We’ve also been able to help guys improve their shots. Not sure if those guys are around anymore or if we have the time to work with him.

I think Shaqs offense is closer to average than Niang defense. He has at least one thing he does well on that side of the court and it isn’t like on defense where Niang can be targeted. A guy can slack off of Shaq but doesn’t mean he can impact the play defensively... Niang can be targeted every time down the floor if they want.

I expect Shaq to be a below average offensive player... I expect him to shoot closer to 30% than 35% but if he’s over 35% (might be unreasonable given the history but stranger things have happened) then he’s definitely an average offensive player. The bar isn’t as high as you are making it.
 
KqWIN said:
Haha. I can see what you're saying. Watching Exum play is in it's own category of confusion and frustration. Haralabob called him a baby deer, and that's a good way to sum up how he plays offense.

I wouldn't say Shaq has the same mental blockers, but he's also just not that gifted of an offensive player. He gets to the rim well, not great when he gets there, but he still gets there. His passing and decisions leave a lot to be desired...and yeah, his shooting over his career makes him one of the worst in the league.
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For less than 1/10th the price (and an even smaller fraction of potential frustration), I'll take it. One plays basketball and one just doesn't.
 
KqWIN said:
Haha. I can see what you're saying. Watching Exum play is in it's own category of confusion and frustration. Haralabob called him a baby deer, and that's a good way to sum up how he plays offense.

I wouldn't say Shaq has the same mental blockers, but he's also just not that gifted of an offensive player. He gets to the rim well, not great when he gets there, but he still gets there. His passing and decisions leave a lot to be desired...and yeah, his shooting over his career makes him one of the worst in the league.
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Exum also had catastrophic turnovers that should count as two or three turnovers instead of one... he had a knack for it... we are making a comeback and he’s turnover the ball leading to a momentum killing layup. He was elite.
 
NUMBERICA said:
For less than 1/10th the price (and an even smaller fraction of potential frustration), I'll take it. One plays basketball and one just doesn't.
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Even when Exum made layups they looked like the first layups he’d ever attempted. If I was playing pickup against him I’d have to see it a few times before I believed it.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
Exum also had catastrophic turnovers that should count as two or three turnovers instead of one... he had a knack for it... we are making a comeback and he’s turnover the ball leading to a momentum killing layup. He was elite.
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Also, for a such a supposed defensive wonder, he blew rotations a ********. You could just watch Quin on the sidelines developing an ulcer when Exum played on either side of the ball.
 
I’m biased because I really like the guy but I think you have to factor in that Shaq gets a **** ton of deflections and steals... live ball turnovers lead to easy offensive opportunities on the other end. Only takes 1-2 of those to make the offensive splits look better.
 
Shaq is cheaper than Exum, that's about it.

If you're a vehement Exum hater and love Shaq it's just goofy.
 
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