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Should a business be allowed to discrimate on the basis of a customer's sexual orientation?

Abortion is murder
Washington Redskins
God hates gays
Jesus loves gays
Meat is murder

Please tell us, Which one of those is too offensive for a tshirt? How do you possibly draw a line?

I personally see no problem letting private, individual shops or businesses choose their customers so long as there are not government actions that prohibit anyone else from entering the market place and competing. So if I don't want to print shirts that say "Smile" I can chose to pass on that business. Someone else can step in and fill the market. Either the price of printing smile shirts wil go so high that I will be enticed to reconsider my conviction, or a competitor will see an opportunity and start a business.

But if a company provides electricity to a community and Has a state granted monopoly...then it must offer its service to everyone.

Man of them are offensive, but as a t-shirt, it is the wearer's constitutional right to express his/her views in such a manner. I would prohibit none of the above. Personally, the only one I find crossed the excessively offensive line is "God hates gays."

We draw the line all the time, whether informally via social norms, customs etc. or formally via organizational policies, laws, etc. It strikes me as a silly kind of argument to suggest that since drawing lines is hard, we should therefore draw no lines.

Your statement assumes a fully function free market, that operates absent distortions, imperfections, etc. with totally free flow of capital, etc. etc. This is a fantasy.

Even so, our growing body of law, Constitutional and otherwise, is concluding that withhold public or private services (the latter as part of a public accommodation business) is unConstitutional or otherwise against the law. So, even in your 'perfect world' where anyone can discriminate against anyone else is but a theoretical abstraction (and a very, very bad one at that) that has no place in the reality of US law.

I am just very, very glad that people like you are not the ones making policy or law.
 
Would everyone feel the same way if they didnt allow someone of your religion to buy from their bakery? How about if your white or male? What if the only store near your house that you have been shopping at most your life stopped allowing straight people to shop at it? I am guessing a lot of you might still say okay thats fine ill shop some where else. Its easy to think that way and not care when you are the dominant race, sex and sexuality. If you are a minority and the majority start treating you this way its a different story.




Fully agree that personal beliefs and ideology are very different from sexual orientation. But I would not call sexual orientation inherent, immutable, and unchangeable attribute of a person's being and personality. I think we are born with parameters but I also believe that your sexuality and gender are fluid and most studies are showing that. Where we are on the spectrum can change. More people are bi-sexual than outright gay in this world. I do think some people are born gay/straight and have very little fluidity in that. Many people are born somewhere in between at some point in a spectrum and have parameters on that spectrum. I also think people can push, pursue, be influenced to different places on a spectrum. Although this is a different discussion.

I like what this women from UofU has to say about it
https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-is-fluid-its-time-to-get-past-born-this-way/

for some reason this article is making you sign up now for some reason, it was free to read a few days ago.

There's a volunteer-run bike repair shop here in my hometown that opens their doors exclusively to women and LGBTQ+ folk on sundays, and some 40 year old white dude threw a complete hissy-fit & contacted the media. Lmao.

https://www.metronews.ca/news/edmon...enied-entry-to-bike-shop-based-on-gender.html
 
You don't know that. You don't know anything about him. You have no clue of why he holds that position.

Yes, but given the demographics of this board, and in light of the comments Galdalfe's referring to (e.g., that discrimination is ok, because the magic of the market will provide), together strongly suggest that the post in question is most likely white and has not suffered from systemic discrimination in his/her lifetime. We could be wrong, but the odds are in our favor.
 
Yes, but given the demographics of this board, and in light of the comments Galdalfe's referring to (e.g., that discrimination is ok, because the magic of the market will provide), together strongly suggest that the post in question is most likely white and has not suffered from systemic discrimination in his/her lifetime. We could be wrong, but the odds are in our favor.

You have no clue about his life, none. Blanket assumptions like that when used to dismiss another's view points are intellectually lazy and mildly rude. It does nothing to further the conversation in a positive way.

IMO
 
You have no clue about his life, none. Blanket assumptions like that when used to dismiss another's view points are intellectually lazy and mildly rude. It does nothing to further the conversation in a positive way.

IMO

With due respect, I have made no blanket assumption, but used deductive reasoning to reach a conclusion based on an understanding of board demographics and drawing reasonable inferences from the poster's statement. I've further conceded the possibility that I'm wrong.

I've done nothing wrong, nor remotely intellectually lazy or rude.
 
With due respect, I have made no blanket assumption, but used deductive reasoning to reach a conclusion based on an understanding of board demographics and drawing reasonable inferences from the poster's statement. I've further conceded the possibility that I'm wrong.

I've done nothing wrong, nor remotely intellectually lazy or rude.


You know nothing about his life. So yes, you are assuming you know why he has the position he does. Also my initial post wasn't towards you even though you did the same thing.

But that's ok. You and gandalfe probably went to liberal colleges, were indoctrinated, taught to dismiss view points that don't agree with your own and don't know any better. See? That's BS.

I'd do you the favor of questioning you and asking you to explain. I won't just assume and dismiss.

But once again we disagree. No surprise there my friend, haha.
 
You know nothing about his life. So yes, you are assuming you know why he has the position he does. Also my initial post wasn't towards you even though you did the same thing.

But that's ok. You and gandalfe probably went to liberal colleges, were indoctrinated, taught to dismiss view points that don't agree with your own and don't know any better. See? That's BS.

I'd do you the favor of questioning you and asking you to explain. I won't just assume and dismiss.

But once again we disagree. No surprise there my friend, haha.

Whoa Stoked, you're way off base here.

You know how deductive reasoning and the use of assumptions in such reasoning works. right?

Please tell me which of the following is, in your opinion, an unreasonable assumption:

1. Posters to this discussion board are predominantly white. The Jazz are located in Utah, a state with relatively little race diversity. Most Jazz fans have some connection to Utah. Thus posters to this board are likely to be white.
2. White people are much more likely to have been the victims of systematic discrimination during their lifetimes.
3. Someone who thinks discrimination in the provision of public or private, public accommodation services is acceptable is much less likely to have been the victim of systematic discrimination during his/her lifetime than someone who has.

By the way, what's your evidence that I've just dismissed this poster's argument out of hand?

In fact, I provided a response demonstrating why I thought it was wrong. Counterargument with reasons and evidence does not constitute 'dismissal', unless dismissal is defined as simply not agreeing.
 
Man of them are offensive, but as a t-shirt, it is the wearer's constitutional right to express his/her views in such a manner. I would prohibit none of the above. Personally, the only one I find crossed the excessively offensive line is "God hates gays."

We draw the line all the time, whether informally via social norms, customs etc. or formally via organizational policies, laws, etc. It strikes me as a silly kind of argument to suggest that since drawing lines is hard, we should therefore draw no lines.

Your statement assumes a fully function free market, that operates absent distortions, imperfections, etc. with totally free flow of capital, etc. etc. This is a fantasy.

Even so, our growing body of law, Constitutional and otherwise, is concluding that withhold public or private services (the latter as part of a public accommodation business) is unConstitutional or otherwise against the law. So, even in your 'perfect world' where anyone can discriminate against anyone else is but a theoretical abstraction (and a very, very bad one at that) that has no place in the reality of US law.

I am just very, very glad that people like you are not the ones making policy or law.

Please elaborate about the economic conditions that exist that prevent other bakers in Colorado from entering the market place and competing against this guy?

You falsely assume that because I believe in letting people choose what they want to say or print or whom they associate with that I am motivated by hatred, or divisiveness. Given your violent tendencies it is no surprise you project that on others, but Nothing could be further from the truth. I want to end violence, I want peace, I hope for harmony. For me, when I look back across history, I see that when ever a group is forced to do something that they react to that force by building walls of resentment and anger that can last for generations. On the other hand, when people of different cultures or beliefs have successfully integrated and reached some measure of harmony, it is economic motivations that first began to break down the divisions.

Returning to the Colorado cake example, if he were to say to the couple "I don't do those kinds of cakes" how long before word spreads that he is a jerk, and his business decreases? As his business dwindles as a the economic consequence of his conviction, He will come face to face with an internal delama: is it better to have money or a conviction? Who is really hurting by him holding to his conviction? I suppose in the extreme there are some who would hold onto their convitction and die poor and Un-influential. But I believe more people would find a way in themselves to justify their convictions with making profits and find a peaceful way to engage the marketplace again by his or her own free will.

On the other hand, say that business are not allowed to say no. In fact they hear that by saying no they will face huge court costs, and then be forced to do it anyway. What choice does the owner have? They can close the shop or comply. I believe it is human nature to rebel against compulsion, we hate being coerced or forced into doing thing, even if it is for our good. This is especially strong in American culture. We resent the policeman for encouraging us to drive at safe speeds, people are skeptical of mandatory vaccinations, people hate the building inspector. So the shop might be making cakes, but he hasn't changed his conviction, and every time he is compelled to do something the resentment builds inside him. What good has this done? There is no resolution of the original conflict, there is no harmony. But because he is complying on the surface, everyone purchases from him, so that even the group he hates is contributing to his prosperity.
As a consumer you are not able to make an informed choice about the kind of person/ shop you are dealing with.

As an aside, another unfortunate quirk of human nature is that people will often strike back against force when given a chance, so a cake maker leaves his court ordered cake in the oven 2 minutes longer, to dry it out a bit, or spits in the batter when no-one is looking. Again, how has the compulsion helped this human interaction, where is harmony?

I guess it depends on your desired outcomes. Do you want to win people's hearts or minds to a cause, or do you simply want to punish people because they don't think like you.
 
Whoa Stoked, you're way off base here.

You know how deductive reasoning and the use of assumptions in such reasoning works. right?

Please tell me which of the following is, in your opinion, an unreasonable assumption:

1. Posters to this discussion board are predominantly white. The Jazz are located in Utah, a state with relatively little race diversity. Most Jazz fans have some connection to Utah. Thus posters to this board are likely to be white.
2. White people are much more likely to have been the victims of systematic discrimination during their lifetimes.
3. Someone who thinks discrimination in the provision of public or private, public accommodation services is acceptable is much less likely to have been the victim of systematic discrimination during his/her lifetime than someone who has.

By the way, what's your evidence that I've just dismissed this poster's argument out of hand?

In fact, I provided a response demonstrating why I thought it was wrong. Counterargument with reasons and evidence does not constitute 'dismissal', unless dismissal is defined as simply not agreeing.

You still know nothing about him or his life. Again this wasn't about you, you just jumped in and have beefed it out more.

So you can take generalized, probable possibilities and reach a likely assumption or you can actually do Mellow the respect of asking him why he believes as he does. In all fairness I would defend you, along with 95% of other posters, as well if I felt it necessary.

Either way I see no real point in continuing this side discussion do you? You don't think "x" happened and I do. No harm no foul.
 
Don't worry about it stoked, everyone knows calling someone a nazi or racist is simply an attempt to find a quick escape from a conversation where two parties disagree. Jimmy and I simply don't agree on the issue of compulsion.
 
You still know nothing about him or his life. Again this wasn't about you, you just jumped in and have beefed it out more.

So you can take generalized probable possibilities and reach a conclusion or you can actually do Mellow the respect of asking him.

Either way I see no real point of continuing this side discussion do you? You don't think "x" happened and I do. No harm no foul.

I've never suggested I know anything about his life.

I continue to contend that I've reached a reasonable conclusion based on a reasonable set of assumptions, and I've made clear this is based on reasonable probabilities (likelihoods) not certainties.

Ok, with that, I'm happy to drop it--if You want the last word, I'll let you have it.

Cheers.
 
Don't worry about it stoked, everyone knows calling someone a nazi or racist is simply an attempt to find a quick escape from a conversation where two parties disagree. Jimmy and I simply don't agree on the issue of compulsion.

Out of curiosity, who did I recently call a Nazi or racist (aside from Carolina Jazz, who is a demonstrable racist)?
 
I don't call anyone a Nazi or a racist, unless they're, you know, actually a Nazi or a racist.
 
Did you know that all Nazis are racists, but not all racists are Nazis?


54cefccfc90e8c193f000015.gif
 
Please elaborate about the economic conditions that exist that prevent other bakers in Colorado from entering the market place and competing against this guy?

You falsely assume that because I believe in letting people choose what they want to say or print or whom they associate with that I am motivated by hatred, or divisiveness. Given your violent tendencies it is no surprise you project that on others, but Nothing could be further from the truth. I want to end violence, I want peace, I hope for harmony. For me, when I look back across history, I see that when ever a group is forced to do something that they react to that force by building walls of resentment and anger that can last for generations. On the other hand, when people of different cultures or beliefs have successfully integrated and reached some measure of harmony, it is economic motivations that first began to break down the divisions.

Returning to the Colorado cake example, if he were to say to the couple "I don't do those kinds of cakes" how long before word spreads that he is a jerk, and his business decreases? As his business dwindles as a the economic consequence of his conviction, He will come face to face with an internal delama: is it better to have money or a conviction? Who is really hurting by him holding to his conviction? I suppose in the extreme there are some who would hold onto their convitction and die poor and Un-influential. But I believe more people would find a way in themselves to justify their convictions with making profits and find a peaceful way to engage the marketplace again by his or her own free will.

On the other hand, say that business are not allowed to say no. In fact they hear that by saying no they will face huge court costs, and then be forced to do it anyway. What choice does the owner have? They can close the shop or comply. I believe it is human nature to rebel against compulsion, we hate being coerced or forced into doing thing, even if it is for our good. This is especially strong in American culture. We resent the policeman for encouraging us to drive at safe speeds, people are skeptical of mandatory vaccinations, people hate the building inspector. So the shop might be making cakes, but he hasn't changed his conviction, and every time he is compelled to do something the resentment builds inside him. What good has this done? There is no resolution of the original conflict, there is no harmony. But because he is complying on the surface, everyone purchases from him, so that even the group he hates is contributing to his prosperity.
As a consumer you are not able to make an informed choice about the kind of person/ shop you are dealing with.

As an aside, another unfortunate quirk of human nature is that people will often strike back against force when given a chance, so a cake maker leaves his court ordered cake in the oven 2 minutes longer, to dry it out a bit, or spits in the batter when no-one is looking. Again, how has the compulsion helped this human interaction, where is harmony?

I guess it depends on your desired outcomes. Do you want to win people's hearts or minds to a cause, or do you simply want to punish people because they don't think like you.

I would respond this way:

1. You theorize that the market will respond accordingly to punish discriminators and to ensure the discriminated's access to goods and services of equal quality, and (importantly) without stigma attached or harm done to the discriminated. I believe this represent a naive faith in the market and lacks contemporary historical precedent.
2. Even if you are correct, there is a higher principle, which is worth fighting for. Inevitably, discrimination will provoke someone, sometime to stand up for principle. Then we are right back to where we started. Any suggestion that all of the discriminated will be content to seek goods and service elsewhere and not stand up for principle is naive and, again, lacks contemporary historical precedent--at least in a society where standing for principle is possible.
3. Winning hearts and minds and punishing people who discriminate are not mutually exclusive. Rather, I would suggest that over time they are mutually reinforcing. An effective strategy for curtailing overt discrimination is attaching social stigma/shame to the act of discrimination. Besides, I have no problem or hesitancy whatsoever in punishing bigots. They deserve their punishment, and I hope they choke on it.

Finally, just to clear things up, can you answer two questions and one follow-up question?

1. Are you white?
2. Have you ever been the victim of systematic discrimination?
2a. If Yes, can you please explain?
 
M
A gay dude could come to my house and try to convert me to gayness and would have zero chance.

you sure about that? have you done research.
how large was the focusgroup.
did it invovle a double blind study?

and i am about 110% sure that if we change ur hormone levels you might start to fall in love with a dude
 
I don't think anyone should be able to discriminate anyone else if their business is open to the public, with some exceptions (say a tshirt shop shouldn't have to print something really offensive if they don't want to).

who decides what is offensive.
a cake that says "eat ****, OBAMA" is not offensive to me. but offensive to lots of other people.
a wedding cake with 2 gay figurines on top is offensive to religious people for which marriage is a sacred thing.
a shirt with a swasitka is offensiive to most but not to some racist.
an isis flag is offensive but not as offensive as rebel flag cus amazon bans rebel flag not isis flag.


so who decide what product/service is offensive? YOU? obama? Bush? congress?
lets just business decide what products they sell or not. thats what i am saying
think a gay homosexual cake is offensive dont sell it.
if u think a tshirt with a rebel flag is offfensive dont sell it.
if u think a gaspowered car is offenisve. only sell electirc cars.

simple
 
you sure about that? have you done research.
how large was the focusgroup.
did it invovle a double blind study?

and i am about 110% sure that if we change ur hormone levels you might start to fall in love with a dude
I'm 110% sure that I will never be attracted to a dude
 
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