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Should Mitt release his tax returns?

You said this in your second post, backtracking from your first delusional post in which you celebrated the ability, power, and responsibility of stockholders to oversee executive compensation packages in our economic system.

And I'm delusional?

I said stockholders can choose to keep or sell stock based on their understanding of the performance of board members. I didn't say anything about overseeing the compensation packages. You made taht up in your feeble mind somewhere.

Stocks are bought and sold for thousands of reasons, and I maintain that a few people buying and selling some stock for what they perceive as good or bad compensation plans is not sufficient to ensure a healthy economic system as it is currently set up. If there was more disclosure of such matters, more discipline in public attitudes about wasting money, and stockholders generally had real power to make changes, I would be sympathetic to your perspective.

My perspective is my own. Why are you insisting that it's some sort of judgment or reflection on today's society? I'm only concerned about managing my finances, because I acknowledge that ultimately I am responsible for investing my own money. If I invest it in a place that isn't doing things the right way, and I don't sell my stock, it's my responsibility. And a lack of information is not enough reason to excuse someone. If I get burned because I didn't do the research or the information isn't available, then I shouldn't have been investing there in the first place.

I'm done with you. You do not make any sense.
 
you were the one who was implying that the current system is set up to have the interests of the executives well aligned with the interests of the stockholders, and it is the responsibility of the shareholders to keep this system in line , etc.

these thoughts run through several posts, excuse me for not spending any more time documenting your evolving philosophies...

if you are now conceding that overpaid executives make ridiculous pay packages stuffed with stock options that benefit from fluctuations in stock prices , and compensation is very loosely related to the value added at best , drawing resources from the corporations and the general economy into the executive pockets, with individual stockholders or the general public having practically no oversight or input , then we are in alliance.
 
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I'm against the very wealthy being elected to public office because they just don't understand the average American... unless of course it's a Kennedy... or a Democrat.

People can fight for what they don't understand.
 
People can fight for what they don't understand.

Did you really just completely miss the whole point/laugh Scat had?

So who was that dude running for Pres a few years ago who made up some war hero stories and married the Heinz heiress. A real "man of the people", that. Nothing at all like a kid given a bunch of money and who then did pretty well with it, at least in terms of making some more money himself. While supporting a stay-at-home wife partially disabled with MS. lol.

But seriously folks, the problem is these "candidates" are all the same. Little managers playing a game on us under the guidance of PartyPolitics, Inc., with pretty much equal partisanship and equal intellectual incapacity and incompetence. Will someone please give me an actual reason to think there's a real difference here. I mean, other than Obama.

But hey, One Brow. I can see your point. Very well demonstrated, my friend. Professionally illustrated, it seems.
 
Did you really just completely miss the whole point/laugh Scat had?

Yes. I think you missed my the point of my response.

So who was that dude running for Pres a few years ago who made up some war hero stories and married the Heinz heiress.

No one. There was a guy who married a heinz heiress, and a few people that weren't there who claimed the sotries must have been made up, but no guy who made up war stories.

A real "man of the people", that.

Not at all.

But hey, One Brow. I can see your point. Very well demonstrated, my friend. Professionally illustrated, it seems.

You saw my point that politicians are usually not men of the people, but can still try to fight for them? Good.
 
And I'm delusional?

I said stockholders can choose to keep or sell stock based on their understanding of the performance of board members. I didn't say anything about overseeing the compensation packages.
Board members approve (rubber stamp) compensation packages. My post you attacked with your references to board members was about executive pay. Excuse me for attributing some relevance to your words, when it appears you want it known that all of your posts are to be read as nuggets isolated from any connection to the rest of the discussion, despite any appearances to the contrary.

I have failed to convince you of the validity of my opinions, and concede defeat with this regard.
I would undue calling you delusional if I could. That was uncalled for. It is just the sort of thing that is commonplace here. I didn't realize that you were new. Good day.
 
Wow. And just how long do you think they keep their jobs if they drive the stock down? And they don't "give themselves" millions of options. Their compensation package is determined by the board of directors - the very same people who will quickly and easily remove the offender if he tanks things. Companies that have offered a golden parachute for ineffective executives have suffered dramatically. But the responsibility ultimately lies with the shareholders, doesn't it? Because they are the ones who pick the Board. If they put dolts on the board, who act like dolts, and lose their money, isn't it their own fault?


The Yip Yip Martians could get what they're bitching for if they demanded the executive enforce fiduciary duty laws that are already on the books. Obama has been M.I.A. here just like everywhere else. That's what we deserve for electing a narcissist who surrounded himself with communists and America haters, and went on a Wall Street suckoffathon to get elected.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTc3PsW5ghQ
 
Ya, small time consequences like incredible hyper-inflation, reduced cost of living that impacts the lower income brackets the most, lack of some specific goods and parts due to the fact we don't have the manufacturing infrastructure in the United States any more...

There are reasons the jobs left the United States. Americans benefit from those reasons - specifically, products were able to be produced at a lower cost, thus making it so more Americans could afford them.

I know it's a pipe dream, but I wish we would spend less budget money trying to keep low-skill, low-wage jobs in the United States, and spend more money on re-education and re-skilling to higher-income jobs. In other words... government facilitated creative destruction.

What a novel concept.
None of that stuff matters (inflation, cheaper products, etc) if you're broke, unemployed, and losing/lost your home. These theories don't have to be theories anymore. We can look at our current economy and use the facts instead of theories.

I do agree with you that we should be spending more on education though. Not that I think there are enough of those "higher-income" jobs to go around if everyone decided to get educated. But at least there would be no more excuses.

Then you are looking at pissing off more than the Phillipines. Add Singapore, India, China, Canada, Mexico, France, Britian, Germany amoung others to that list. What if they do the same? Alot of people just got screwed. How do you accomodate for that? Are you thinking that the amount of jobs brought back will equal that amount lost? What if they take other steps such as cancelling agreements and treaties in other ares such a military cooperation and research?

I see your idea as creating 20 problems where only one existed before.
I am totally fine with pissing off all of those countries to bring the jobs back. And if those countries do the same, fine. It's way beyond time that we stop worrying so much about the rest of the world and clean up our own kitchen.
We pissed off most of the world (and even most Americans) when we invaded Iraq. I'd rather piss them off for a good reason.

Think about what you are saying. These would not be middle class jobs you'd be bringing back.

And so what would companies do? Incorporate in other countries, enter into joint ventures here in the United States, and do business with the parent company being sheltered by another government's regulations. It's not that hard to do.

The answer to economic recovery through creative destruction is not to try to hold on to what's on its way out.
The answer is to make the transition easier.
Yes, those would be middle class jobs. Manufacturing jobs, customer service jobs, and computer programming jobs. Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head that are commonly outsourced. All of them are middle class jobs. Computer programming can actually be above middle class depending on how good the programmer is. We're not talking about the fry cook at Burger King here. These are all decent to very good jobs.

And if companies are finding loopholes to get around the rules, then penalize them. Eliminate the loopholes.

The only alternative here is wait for things to "even out" so that Americans compete with the overseas workers. In other words, we'll have to start living 30 people to a hut and earning $1.00 per hour like the fine folks of India, China, etc. And what is the benefit? We get products for slightly cheaper? (and getting products for cheaper is debatable- I honestly don't think we get them any cheaper, I think the corporate execs pocket the savings)
 
Salty I agree on cleaning up our won kitchen. However I think your way destroys our kitchen. You seem to be wishing to create an enviroment that is not conduce to business. If I was a business owner or wanted to open a business under your extremely strict rules I would take my business elsewhere. Then all you have done is lose out.

If you want to "clean up our own kitchen" by losing everything in it then you are on a good path.
 
Salty I agree on cleaning up our won kitchen. However I think your way destroys our kitchen. You seem to be wishing to create an enviroment that is not conduce to business. If I was a business owner or wanted to open a business under your extremely strict rules I would take my business elsewhere. Then all you have done is lose out.

If you want to "clean up our own kitchen" by losing everything in it then you are on a good path.
If you were a business owner and decided to move to another country and open a business there, fine. The free market would fill the void you left. Someone else would just open that same business and make the money that you turned down.
 
Can I ask a serious question here? I hate politics and feel our system is waaaaaay past the point of no return with a large part of the reason being our size of government. How much of what we have as current issues could be slightly resolved if we as a country dissolved into 50 new countries so to speak?
 
If you were a business owner and decided to move to another country and open a business there, fine. The free market would fill the void you left. Someone else would just open that same business and make the money that you turned down.

Not if the enviroment that is available is very restrictive and detrimental to business. They way to get them to open/do business in America is thru enticement not punishment.
 
Can I ask a serious question here? I hate politics and feel our system is waaaaaay past the point of no return with a large part of the reason being our size of government. How much of what we have as current issues could be slightly resolved if we as a country dissolved into 50 new countries so to speak?

Almost all of them. Immigration, gay marriage, budgets... would all be drastically overhauled by every state to fit their views. And as a result some would prosper and some would self destruct.
 
Almost all of them. Immigration, gay marriage, budgets... would all be drastically overhauled by every state to fit their views. And as a result some would prosper and some would self destruct.

And I think we may be surprised at the states that self destruct.
 
Can I ask a serious question here? I hate politics and feel our system is waaaaaay past the point of no return with a large part of the reason being our size of government. How much of what we have as current issues could be slightly resolved if we as a country dissolved into 50 new countries so to speak?


Someone has to be the big dog that keeps world peace. What's the point of solving problems if we're all the next megalomaniac's bitch? We'd still require a loose central correlation & have learned well enough how poorly those work. Current Europe is prime example. Where would they be if there weren't a super power looking over their shoulder? Who'd start chipping at the weak countries around the edges?
 
Salty I agree on cleaning up our won kitchen. However I think your way destroys our kitchen. You seem to be wishing to create an enviroment that is not conduce to business. If I was a business owner or wanted to open a business under your extremely strict rules I would take my business elsewhere. Then all you have done is lose out.

If you want to "clean up our own kitchen" by losing everything in it then you are on a good path.

I believe France just did this. They increased taxes from 45% to 75% or something close. All their rich people moved to England and sold their mansions to foreign investors.
 
The GOP pretty much acknowledged as much prior to the last fiscal cliff shenanigans. They wanted to get rid of the $114bln "expense" but couldn't do it politically, of course. There was very little benefit from it compared to costs.

The republicans know putting people to work is much more effective. That's why they're blocking the infrastructure bill until after the elections. This all feeds into my opposite voting theory--want war spending increased, higher education funding decreased, & tax cuts for everyone? Vote democrat. Want a jobs bill, tax hikes on the rich (i.e. Mitt's simplification), and millitary spending frozen? Vote republican.

All tax "cuts" ain't created equal.

Obama's "cuts" look like they are special interest targeted (not to mention being paired with a huge amount of spending), while Reagan's was an across the board tax rate cut. JFK reduced tax rates too. Both times revenues skyrocketed because the economy was actually stimulated.
 
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