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So I want to talk about the Mormons

franklin

Well-Known Member
Does anyone else find the depth of Joseph Smiths book as amazing as I do? All this stuff they keep finding like especially the hebraisms and internal consistency and lehi's trail stuff blows my mind. (No homo)

If Smith made it all up then he was ridiculously smart like Einstein smart in a religious-following way smart. Maybe no one else cares about this stuff but it fascinates me how anyone could dedicate that much effort into a sham. Inspired or alltime genius sham right?
 
If Smith made it all up then he was ridiculously smart like Einstein smart in a religious-following way smart. Maybe no one else cares about this stuff but it fascinates me how anyone could dedicate that much effort into a sham. Inspired or alltime genius sham right?

Bible Code.
 
Maybe no one else cares about this stuff but it fascinates me how anyone could dedicate that much effort into a sham.

Keeping with the religious theme, Have you looked at the depth of the Church of Scientology? I'm not saying all religion is a sham.. the heck do I know.. but there are far more questionable religious organizations out there that people legitimately believe. IF Joseph Smith is a sham artist, he's only slightly above average.

As far as how people can dedicate so much into a lie, well just look at one day in congress.
 
Some of this stuff is cheesy but this shows exactly what Joseph did if he truly did make it all up.


Could you duplicate the Book of Mormon?

1. You must be 23-24 years of age.

2. You cannot be a college graduate, in fact, you can have only three years of schooling.

3. You must write a book with 239 Chapters, 54 of them about wars, 21 about history, 55 about prophecy, 71 about doctrine, 17 about missionaries, and 21 about the mission of Jesus Christ.

4. Whatever you write must be on the basis of what you now know; no research can be done.

5. You must write a history of an ancient country, such as Tibet, covering a period from 600 BC to 421 AD. Why? Cause you know nothing about Tibet.

6. You must include in your writings the history of two distinct and seperate nations, along with histories of different contemperary nations or groups of people, of which no one ever knew existed.

7. Your writings must describe the religious, economic, social, and political cultures and institutions of these two nations.

8. You must weave into your history the religion of Jesus Christ and the pattern of Christian living.

9. When you start to produce this record, covering a period of over 1,000 years, you must finish it in approximatly 80 days.

10. When you have finished you must not make any changes in the text. The first edition must stand forever.

11. After pauses for sleep and food, if you are dictating to a stenographer you must never ask to have the last paragraph or last sentence read back to you.

12. Your record must be about 522 pages with over 510 word per page. You must add 180 proper nouns to the English language. William Shakespeare only added 20.

13. You must announce that your "smooth narrative" is not fiction, but truth, yes, even that it is a sacred record of history.

14. In fact, your book must fulfill Bible prophecies; even in the exact manner in which it shall come forth, to whom given, its purpose and accomplishments (Respectively-Psalms 85:10-11, Isaih 29:11-14, Ezekial 37:18-21, etc.)

15. You must publish it to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, declaring it to be the Word of God.

16. You must include with the record itself, the marvelous promise; "And when ye shall recieve these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God the Enternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, He will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost" -Mor 3:5

17. Tens and hundreds of thousands must bear record to the world for the next 145 years that they know the record to be true, because they put the "promise" to the test and found it to be true, the truth manifested to them by the power of the Holy Ghost.

18. Thousands of great men, intellectual giants, and scholars must subscribe discipleship to the record and its movement even to the point of laying down their own lives for it.

19. Your descriptions of the culture and people in these civilizations of which you will write include, the manner of their written and spoken languages, type of buildings, geographic locations, governmental types, monetary system, types of tools and materials used, and many other facts completely unknown to the rest of the world.

20. There can be no flaw whatsoever in the entire record.

21. Yet, you must not make an absurd, impossible, or contradictory statement.

22. Even so, many of the facts, ideas, and statements given us as truth in your record must be entirely inconsistent, even the direct opposite of the prevailing beliefs of the world where very little is claimed to be known about these civilizations and their 1000 years of history.

23. You must invite the ablest scholars and experts to examine the text with care. You must strive diligently to see that your book gets into the hands of all those most eager to prove it a forgery and who are most competent to expose and flaw in it.

24. Through investigation, scientific evidence, and archaeological discoveries for the next 150+ years must verify your claims and prove even the minutest details of your history to be perfectly true, even to the types of roads they built.

25. After 150+ years of analysis, no claim or fact in the book is disproven, but all is vindicated. Other theories and ideas as to its origin, rise, and fall, leaving your claims as the only possible ones.

26. Internal and external prophecies must be confirmed and fulfilled in the next 150 years.

27. Three honest, accreditable witnesses must testify to the whole world that an angel from heaven appeared to them and showed them the ancient records from which you claim your record is translated. These three witnesses must never deny their testimony, not even upon their death bed.

28. You must call out of heaven the voice of the Redeemer to declare to the three witnesses that your record is true and that it is their responsibility to hear the testimony. They must handle and feel the engravings on the plates, and bear record of it. Again, they can never deny their testimony.

29. Eight other witnesses must testify to the world that they saw the ancient records in broad daylight and they that handled them and felt the engravings on the record.

30. The first three and the second eight witnesses must bear their testimony not for profit or gain, but under great personal sacrafice and severe persecution, even to their death.

31. You must find someone to finance your book with the understanding that neither he nor you will ever receive and monetary renumeration from it. You must sell the book at the cost of, or less than the cost of, its production value.

32. You must tell the world that the written record you have translated from was engraven gold plates, even though up until the time you make the claim, no one has ever found anywhere in past history any civilization using gold as a method of keeping records, and not until about 100 years later were any similar engraven gold plates found.

33. Finally, after suffering persecution and revilement for 20 years after you finish the book, you must willingly give your own life for your testimony that the record is from God. All the time you never make a profit or any other type of personal gain save it be your testimony of the work you brought forth.
 
I'm sorry but to my (limited) understanding, Joseph Smith and the BoM fail many of those requirements. The societies that were said to exist in North America didn't actually exist. Animals that were claimed to be used by certain people never existed there.

Again, this is just based on my casual understanding.
 
I'm sorry but to my (limited) understanding, Joseph Smith and the BoM fail many of those requirements. The societies that were said to exist in North America didn't actually exist. Animals that were claimed to be used by certain people never existed there.

Again, this is just based on my casual understanding.

Anachronisms are beside the point I was getting at, which wasn't about true vs. false. If Joseph smith made it all up then he would have had to be pure genius to do so.

Also, his motives not including getting filthy rich, sticking in it no matter what--something brilliant snake oil salesmen aren't exactly known for--and apparently not banging any of his 40 or whatever wives besides Emma... Doesn't really tell the tale of a huckster to me.
 
I'm sorry but to my (limited) understanding, Joseph Smith and the BoM fail many of those requirements. The societies that were said to exist in North America didn't actually exist. Animals that were claimed to be used by certain people never existed there.

Again, this is just based on my casual understanding.

I'm a believer but I agree that the list overstates things. I don't agree with your particular complaints, but I can see how many items in that list wouldn't be convincing.

I especially disagree with this one:

20. There can be no flaw whatsoever in the entire record.

The title page itself declares, "And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God". So Moroni admits there are likely flaws in the record.

That being said, there are a number of items on the list that I personally DO find convincing.
 
Didn't Joseph Smith translate ancient Egyptian writings before the discovery of the Rosetta Stone then after that they found the Rosetta Stone they found out that Joseph Smith translated everything incorrectly?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham

That's far too simple of a statement. Among other things, it's disputed whether we actually have the Egyptian writings that Joseph Smith translated. See here, for example: https://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham.shtml#source
 
Anachronisms are beside the point I was getting at, which wasn't about true vs. false. If Joseph smith made it all up then he would have had to be pure genius to do so.

Also, his motives not including getting filthy rich, sticking in it no matter what--something brilliant snake oil salesmen aren't exactly known for--and apparently not banging any of his 40 or whatever wives besides Emma... Doesn't really tell the tale of a huckster to me.

What about allegations of "money digging?"

A skilled con man doesn't need a formal education in order to con.

Just speaking in the hypothetical. I'm not calling Joseph Smith a con man.
 
My limited understanding also includes that Joseph didn't 'create' (with all respect to followers of the Mormon faith) the works alone.
 
Code:
My limited understanding also includes that Joseph didn't 'create' (with all respect to followers of the Mormon faith) the works alone.

Modern Word print analysis suggest as many authors as the book claims. Big Joey solicited lots of help.
 
Question to Mormons about Joseph Smith's death.

Why does the church try to conceal the fact that Joseph had a gun in the jail when he was killed? And that he fired shots at the mob? If you watch movies by the church they never include this fact.
 
Question to Mormons about Joseph Smith's death.

Why does the church try to conceal the fact that Joseph had a gun in the jail when he was killed? And that he fired shots at the mob? If you watch movies by the church they never include this fact.
I don't think the church tries to conceal it. I knew about that fact from the time I was very young. But I do find it odd that a prisoner would have been given a gun at the time of the attack. In my opinion, it was one of two reasons: 1) his jailers knew they could not protect him (or didn't want to) and felt he at least deserved a chance to defend himself. Or 2) it was a set up to make the killing seem justified. Since Joseph fired a gun, the mob was only returning fire to defend THEMSELVES.

And I fully understand those who think JS was a fraud. On face value, his claims of heavenly visions and visitations, of receiving the Book of Mormon plates...WOW, that would be like us accepting the world of Harry Potter or Twilight to be real. So he's either an actual prophet or pulled off one of the greatest hoaxes in modern history.
 
Question to Mormons about Joseph Smith's death.

Why does the church try to conceal the fact that Joseph had a gun in the jail when he was killed? And that he fired shots at the mob? If you watch movies by the church they never include this fact.

It is not concealed. It is well known by Mormons and when you go to the jail itself they tell you he had one. It may not be a widely distributed fact but it is not concealed.
 
Didn't Joseph Smith translate ancient Egyptian writings before the discovery of the Rosetta Stone then after that they found the Rosetta Stone they found out that Joseph Smith translated everything incorrectly?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham

Muslims have similar claims btw here is a similar one. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Joseph#Use_of_.22king.22_vs._.22pharaoh.22)



this is the reason i initially left the church, and surprisingly is also the reason that i subsequently returned.
 
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