So I want to talk about the Mormons

[Gameface]

I don't know why this particular criticism bothers me so. I had a bad experience with someone many years ago with such a list, and I am still upset recalling it, and how disingenious he had been. I'm not saying you are disingenious, but would you do a small task to make sure you are asking a real question.

Take your list, then go back to your BoM. As you read the BoM and one of your list comes up, ask yourself if the context is one where the plant/animal is being described in the present context if so, is the story still in Jerusalem or the Journey through the wilderness before they enter the ship? If "yes" scratch the animal/plant from the list.

Next, check to see if the plant/animal is being used as part of a quotation from Isaiah, or other prophet who lived in the old world and is being quoted. If yes, scratch it from your list.

Now your list is much shorter, and is a genuine question that is worthy of contemplation.

Then do what Colton says with the rest of the list.

For what it's worth, I like hearing stuff like this. I've heard about the animals and plants before (I mentioned it earlier) but I haven't read the BoM and don't really plan to and even if I did I'm not familiar enough with what plants and animals existed here thousands of years ago to catch any inconsistencies. But, it's good to see that the answer to that criticism is not that "it's magic" and that the argument itself is born from ignorance for the most part.

So, if this thread hasn't accomplished anything else it has convinced me to stop bringing that up.

 

[mellow]

In my opinion this is the single biggest flaw of the Church in Utah. To many members are getting a feeling of superiority. Goes agaisnt everything the Church stands for.

I used to get really upset by this. I lived for a while in a small utah town where there were no lines between Church, city, or business. I don't get so upset anymore I am just really careful around those kind of people....sheep clothing, whited seplucures, etc....not just a Utah or Mormon problem, the nice thing about it in Utah is I have gotten better at recognizing those folks and staying away.


I just posted in the General Section, posted three times about religion. That broke two of my own personal rules for happy Jazzfanness, and I broke another one a couple of weeks ago, sorry Naos. The draft can't get here soon enough.

 

[cowhide]

With the people who complain about how the state is governed and laws that are influenced by the church, have you ever thought that that's just how the cookie crumbles. I mean, SLC was founded by mormons and thus, there is a lot of influence by them. I think some of the laws (especially alcohol laws) are whack and make no sense, but then again that's because of where I live and the history of the state.

It's like living in Rome and bitching about Catholics or am I way off?

You wonder why some people "hate" Mormons and then you post this stuff about too bad the Mormons founded Utah so they get to run the show. If that were the case the Native Americans should be running the show. The problem is that many people in Utah share your believe that Mormons are the majority so they get to be in charge. You still can't understand why that might piss off the minority (non-mormons)?

 

[Gameface]

You wonder why some people "hate" Mormons and then you post this stuff about too bad the Mormons founded Utah so they get to run the show. If that were the case the Native Americans should be running the show. The problem is that many people in Utah share your believe that Mormons are the majority so they get to be in charge. You still can't understand why that might piss off the minority (non-mormons)?

And unfortunately for LDS folks Utah joined the Union. There are conditions associated with that, religious liberty being one of them.

 

[Stoked]

And unfortunately for LDS folks Utah joined the Union. There are conditions associated with that, religious liberty being one of them.

Define "religious liberty". If you are using that to argue say the reduced alcohol content in utah beer then I feel you will have a very hard time arguing that in court.

.

 

[BabyPeterzz]

Define "religious liberty". If you are using that to argue say the reduced alcohol content in utah beer then I feel you will have a very hard time arguing that in court.

.

It would never be used in court. Reasons like states rights, reducing drunk driving, under age drinking; these are the legal and philosophical reasons used to justify alcohol content. But we all know the real reason; because imbibing is against the WoW and therefor everyone in Utah must abide.

I get furious even typing that.

 

[Stoked]

It would never be used in court. Reasons like states rights, reducing drunk driving, under age drinking; these are the legal and philosophical reasons used to justify alcohol content. But we all know the real reason; because imbibing is against the WoW and therefor everyone in Utah must abide.

I get furious even typing that.

Oh I agree I was just saying good luck arguing that in court. I think that alot of Utah's alcohol laws are stupid.

 

[One Brow]

The LDS church has ccome out and said that the name "Mormon" is not their name. You also have a valid point. Glad to see your are finally learning.

Also the victims always have insights on the persecution. I am just not naive enough to think that they are the only ones that have any insight.

Lots of black people don't like the term African American, and it's not official in many places. I already understood your point, but have no expectation that you will stop referring to yourself as Mormon to reduce the persecution you face. Frankly, if you did, it wouldn't work (e.g., Jehovah's Witnesses).

So, you think my insight on what it's like to be persecuted for being a Mormon is just as good as yours?

 

[Archie Moses]

You wonder why some people "hate" Mormons and then you post this stuff about too bad the Mormons founded Utah so they get to run the show.

Is that not a valid point? IMO that's still not deserving of "hate."

 

[Gameface]

Define "religious liberty". If you are using that to argue say the reduced alcohol content in utah beer then I feel you will have a very hard time arguing that in court.

.

Mostly that's just in response to Archie's "LDS settled Utah so deal with it" statement.

And for Archie, I know the LDS settled Utah, many of them were my ancestors (Kanab, in particular, I'm descended from the Young's and Heaton's who settled there). This is as much my place as it is anyone's. I feel that my say and my opinions are just as valid as LDS people's say and opinions, call me crazy.

I don't really care about the fact that alcohol is heavily controlled, I care about stupid meaningless laws that don't accomplish anything but aggravating people.

No one ever seems to like this analogy in the middle of a gun debate, let's see how it plays here:

Gun laws in places like NYC and California are like liquor laws in Utah. They're made by people who do not understand the item being regulated and who consider the item evil and unnecessary.

 

[Stoked]

Lots of black people don't like the term African American, and it's not official in many places. I already understood your point, but have no expectation that you will stop referring to yourself as Mormon to reduce the persecution you face. Frankly, if you did, it wouldn't work (e.g., Jehovah's Witnesses).

So, you think my insight on what it's like to be persecuted for being a Mormon is just as good as yours?

I think it is different but that does not mean your insight is to be discarded because you are not LDS. Like you seem to think whites insights on racism are to be discarded.

 

[One Brow]

It is needed for spelling, punctuation and quality. Are you implying that the Book of Mormon could be written, as is, by a 2nd grader?

I'm pretty sure Smith was not 7 when he wrote it. Are you implying the only way to learn language is in school?

Also, as I recall the story, at least much of the Book of Mormon was dictated by Smith, but written by others. Is that wrong?

 

[Archie Moses]

It would never be used in court. Reasons like states rights, reducing drunk driving, under age drinking; these are the legal and philosophical reasons used to justify alcohol content. But we all know the real reason; because imbibing is against the WoW and therefor everyone in Utah must abide.

I get furious even typing that.

You got a lot of anger, bro. haha.

I still love you for giving me 5 bucks for a buy back in poker though.

 

[Archie Moses]

FWIW, and you probably won't understand this, but I'm active mormon, live in utah, and I feel the same. I would only add that in my experience it is not just Mormons in positions of power who look down on others.

That's the way I look at it too. I have to options I guess. Let it bug me/or not bug me and/or try and do something about it.

 

[Archie Moses]

No, you make a good point. But turn it around and ask yourself this:

Maybe peoples anger with the LDS church is a consequence of choosing to legislate morality.

That's people in the church, not the church, dude. Or am I wrong?

 

[One Brow]

I think it is different but that does not mean your insight is to be discarded because you are not LDS. Like you seem to think whites insights on racism are to be discarded.

I haven't said discarded. I've said they need to be evaluated in consideration of the insight-holder's position in society, and how that changes the context.

 

[Archie Moses]

Mostly that's just in response to Archie's "LDS settled Utah so deal with it" statement.

Is that really how I wrote it or how it came off? Because if so, that wasn't my intention.

 

[Archie Moses]

And for Archie, I know the LDS settled Utah, many of them were my ancestors (Kanab, in particular, I'm descended from the Young's and Heaton's who settled there). This is as much my place as it is anyone's. I feel that my say and my opinions are just as valid as LDS people's say and opinions, call me crazy.

I don't really care about the fact that alcohol is heavily controlled, I care about stupid meaningless laws that don't accomplish anything but aggravating people.

No one ever seems to like this analogy in the middle of a gun debate, let's see how it plays here:

Gun laws in places like NYC and California are like liquor laws in Utah. They're made by people who do not understand the item being regulated and who consider the item evil and unnecessary.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[MVP]

I don't know why this particular criticism bothers me so. I had a bad experience with someone many years ago with such a list, and I am still upset recalling it, and how disingenious he had been. I'm not saying you are disingenious, but would you do a small task to make sure you are asking a real question.

Take your list, then go back to your BoM. As you read the BoM and one of your list comes up, ask yourself if the context is one where the plant/animal is being described in the present context if so, is the story still in Jerusalem or the Journey through the wilderness before they enter the ship? If "yes" scratch the animal/plant from the list.

Next, check to see if the plant/animal is being used as part of a quotation from Isaiah, or other prophet who lived in the old world and is being quoted. If yes, scratch it from your list.

Now your list is much shorter, and is a genuine question that is worthy of contemplation.

Then do what Colton says with the rest of the list.

Ok, maybe I can scratch few animals of that list, does not change the fact that there is not a single one confirmed via archeological findings - thus it is fiction! Colton's explanation leaves me even more skeptical. Basically what he is saying ( and I assume you agree with him ), that Joseph Smith made incorrect translation while translating from golden plates. Since he "was helped by God" to do so, it means that God made those mistakes? There is numerous other fictional things which were never found to be true - I was just pointing to the obvious ones. The truth is the same, there was not a single evidence of Jewish people or their activities in 600 BC discovered in Americas which makes all this story a fiction.
All any person needs to do while reading books like that is to use your logic and skeptical analytical thinking to understand that it is just another creation of a man, not the word of God ( same as Quran, Bible, Old testament, you name it!). Sorry folks, I do not want to stir pot anymore here as I know none of you will ever change your beliefs - and that is fine. As long as it makes you happy and better person that all is good. I am out.

 

[colton]

Also, as I recall the story, at least much of the Book of Mormon was dictated by Smith, but written by others. Is that wrong?

All of it was. Smith sometimes spelled out names, but sometimes not. And there was no real punctuation initially; much of the punctuation was added by the printer and (I think) then edited by Smith and/or Smith's scribe.