D
Deleted member 848
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Not just experience levels necessarily-- think team roles as well. Lots of things factor into play. Again, a player collapsing in his first playoff campaign should be of minimal worry (Kobe Bryant).
So much for hayward extension. Paul George got max deal
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Not just experience levels necessarily-- think team roles as well. Lots of things factor into play. Again, a player collapsing in his first playoff campaign should be of minimal worry (Kobe Bryant).
D
Deleted member 848
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I understand.
My main beef is that people who talk about how Paul George 'is in another echelon' than Gordon Hayward-- offensively speaking. And it's ********.
Zach Lowe said that Hayward would be the 1st option on a bottom 5 offense at best this season-- wait, isn't that really close to what George just accomplished last season? Except with the help of West, and Hibbert as opposed to a slew of players on rookie contracts?
Gordon Hayward has LOTS of room for improvement, offensively speaking. The analytics show it.
But I don't really see how George is 'so far' ahead of him here. Rebounding and defense is another story.
George is not a max scorer.
George is not a max scorer.
George was not their best player. Hibbert also got maxed. They also have a guy named David West, their best player.
Sorry, but I get the feeling Dalamon is about to pwn this "best options".
Yup, George'd.
my_mother_was_handi said:
You are by far the most boring troll I've ever read. I get that it's your first time at the dance, but if being predictable/dry/unoriginal is your thing then congratulations because you have conquered losing on a whole new level. Does acting this slow really entertain you? If you're going to put in the effort then bring it or STFU like the rest of the morans currently habiting your corner of the *** fissure.
LogGrad98
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Yep, get hard or go home, or something.
Sexual Favors
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jj redick (These stats are unadjusted. Hayward played 2.4 less minutes than Redick last year, so imagine adjustments)
6 years older
4" shorter
less of a 3 pt threat @39 %. Hay shot .415% on season, 45 % after All Star break.
Is a chucker (6 3PA per game) vs. Hay's 3.4
Only 2.6 FTA vs Hay's 4.1 attempts.
.7 less rebounds
1.4 more AST (4.4 vs 3.0)
only .01 blocks per game, Hay had 0.5
0.6 steals to Hay's 0.8
2.1 TO's to Hay's 1.7
15.1 PTS to Hay's 14.1.
So Redick's averages are worse than Hayward's in almost every single category, even with less minutes. This last season was Redick's 8th season in the league, and his best, while this was Hay's 3rd and his best. How much does Redick have left? Hayward already posting better numbers than him.
Now Jared Dudley:
(played 2 minutes less than Hay last year. stats are unadjusted)
1" shorter
5 1/2 years older
less of a 3 pt threat @39.1 %. Hay shot .415 % on season, 45 % after All Star break.
Only 2.1 FTA vs Hay's 4.1 attempts.
rebounds are the same @ 3.1
.4 less AST (2.6 vs 3.0)
only .01 blocks per game, Hay had 0.5
0.9 steals to Hay's 0.8 (almost identical)
1.3 TO's to Hay's 1.7
only 10.9 pts to Hay's 14.1.
Dudley has played in the league for 7 years. His best season was 11-12 when he averaged 12.7 pts. Hayward just had his 3rd, played on a better team (with other players filling up stat sheet) and averaged better in all categories last year, except for .4 more TO's and .1 less steals).
Hayward is FAR superior to both of those players, with per-36's on par with Paul George (who wasn't deserving of a max). I full heartedly believe IND overpaid for George, and would like to see Hay signed between 8-11 mm. Hayward also has intangibles that neither of the above players possess, as well as untapped upside. Both Dudley and Redick have likely topped out and will start to decline (Dudley already has), while Hayward has been posting significant increases every season. Hayward is not a role player, he is a 3rd, possibly could be a 2nd option on a title contending team.
I think it is time you admit that you were wrong with your initial evaluation of Hayward's draft stock.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Where are you getting these stats, dal? Is this just quoting someone else or are sortable synergysports stats available somewhere?
1. Uh...you've missed the point. Of course Gordo's better, but his value to a team is dependent on what other players a team has (on the Jazz, for example, the Jazz were devoid of any other perimeter talent). I don't think Gordo can be a main hub of an offense (he's an off-ball scorer, dependent on others to create for him) OR an elite halfcourt defender. His value is in his smart, all-around game. On a team that already has a couple players who grade out as elite on offense/defense, this all-around ability isn't as valuable. As I've already stated, replacing Redick/Dudley with Hayward helps the Clips far less than replacing Hayward with Redick/Dudley would hurt the Jazz.
2. Redick will probably be the third option on a contender this coming season.
1. What? How is this relevant to the discussion? Don't be an ***.
2. In this thread, I said I'd give Gordo $9mm per year in an extension and as much as $10mm per year next offseason. I like Gordo, despite what semi-literate Jazzfanz posters seem to think.
Note: Perhaps calling Gordo a complementary player is more accurate than calling him a role player. My definition of "role player" seems to be a bit different than the generally accepted definition. My bad.
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D
Deleted member 848
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It's widely known that Indy ran their offense through West during the regular season. He was their late-game playmaker.
During the playoffs it got a bit helter-skelter. West sort've got silenced a little-- resulting in different players essentially having their own respective nights were they were first-options, or closers. Hill, Stephenson, Hibbert, and George. Going off of memory (correct me if I'm wrong), it was mostly run through Hibbert.
Yes, George had the highest PPG on the team-- but one must ask themselves if this is due to him playing off of two great bigmen-- or if because he was the first option?
In my opinion, it's the latter.
edit: meant the former.
GVC
Well-Known Member
I think you mean "the former" (or do you think he was the first option?).
GVC
Well-Known Member
I don't know, I didn't watch enough. Dude initiated the offense plenty in the games I did see. That's sorta irrelevant though. Indy is lacking offensive talent, and have to run the offense through someone. Being a better option than Hill/Stephenson/Hibbert to run the offense through isn't all that impressive. He's filling that role by default (his offense is overrated). It'll be interesting to see how Granger is re-introduced into the lineup.
edit: Dal, is there a link to the sortable synergysports stats? Also, your inbox is full.
D
Deleted member 848
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I think an important point that needs to be made, is their ridiculous offensive rebounding, and how many second chances they had at plays (mostly spearheaded by Hinrrt).
I'm on my way to school, but I remember Zach Lowe doing an article on it for Grantland during the regular season.
Rest of what you say makes sense. I hope that Granger stays, but George getting the max makes things tumultuous
Why Detlef SChrempf?
Have you watched Paul George play? Did you watch the Heat series?
I'll admit I haven't watched a lot of Paul George, but what he did in the playoffs puts him in a different category. He is an All-Star. Gordon Hayward is barely a starter. There is no merit to the Hayward vs George debate. George is killing it. He has swagger. He can dominate a game. He hits amazing last second shots. I love Hayward, but he doesn't do any of that. I don't have analytics, just what I saw. I've watched Hayward for 3 years and watched George in the playoffs this last year. There is a clear difference. Just go back and watch highlights of the Miami series. George's dunk on LeBron. George's last second 3.
As Jazz fans we desparately held on to the DWill is better than CP3 argument, and for a season we almost had an argument. I'm afraid to say Hayward hasn't brought enough to the table for us to make a legit argument.
D
Deleted member 848
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I got it off of an Indiana-based SB nation blog, if I recall correctly. I'll try to track it down.
GVC, ill clear my inbox in a few minutes
I too love George's .367% clutch shooting. The guy is virtually unstoppable in close games.
D
Deleted member 848
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Don't use stats, base your thoughts off of 7 emotional games instead. You pleb.