Hopper
Banned
Well, VJ, I never had you figured for that kinda nit-pickin stickler. Is it that you just don't want to discuss it, or that you will only do so if I start a brand-new thread?
Some Things to Consider-- becoming the 04 Pistons
- Thread starter The-Joker
- Start date
Well, VJ, I never had you figured for that kinda nit-pickin stickler. Is it that you just don't want to discuss it, or that you will only do so if I start a brand-new thread?
Huh, first I need to know what was the point in you posting it here in this thread. Without understanding the relevance or atleast the intention behind you posing that question, what will I "discuss"? Makes it a little difficult, isnt it?Are you trying to say that just like how the Olympics team with all stars had problems dominating, likewise teams like the Heat with 3 big stars would have the same issues?
Hopper
Banned
Well, it's possible I spoze. They all went over there sayin how dedicated and devoted they were to bringin home the gold (kinda like James, Wade, and Bosh are doin now), but, who knows, mebbe by the time the gold medal game came around they had just lost interest. Any other ideas?
Hopper
Banned
I done tole ya...I aint sayin nuthin. Just axxin a question. Rich said it was a question of good coachin, depth, and chemistry, as I recall. He seemed to conclude that the USA wasn't lackin in depth or good coachin, and said it musta come down to chemistry. I then axxed him how mere "chemisty," even if presumed to be a LOT better for Spain, than the USA, could come that close to beatin vastly superior talent. I don't think he ever responded, but you did.
Unless I understand the purpose/relevance behind that question in this thread, I think this is best discussed in general NBA threads. I am not sure why you would post that here if it did not have any relevance. I am assuming that you are trying to get to something, but unless you explan what it is, it doesnt make much sense to discuss this here.
Like I said there could be a combination of zillion reasons for why they didnt play well enough from chemistry to ego to overconfidence to quality of opponents.
Hopper
Banned
Well, OK, if you don't have any real sense of why, other than a possible "combination of a zillion reasons," that's fine. No need to start a new thread in the NBA forum for that. Mebbe someone else will have a more specific idea, and offer it here.
Hopper
Banned
Ya think? I don't know that much about the difference(s) in rules. Do the FIBA rules tend to penalize superior talent somehow?
- https://www.members.shaw.ca/jazzace/ace/hoop/rulediff.html
- No special stars treatment
- Fouls are called somewhat differently. Especially offensive ones
Considering above it makes much more than one month camp and several tournament games to completely adjust to FIBA system
Hopper
Banned
So ya think that explains it all? I looked at the "major differences" there, and I didn't see anything that would appear to take months to master, but who knows? I figure an NBA team could probably go to any college campus and play the local team, and still win easily, even though they would suddenly have to adjust to "different (NCAA) rules," but mebbe not.
So Hopper if you wanted to discuss something totally irrelevant, why did you do that in this thread? Any reason? Or is it completely arbitrary and you are just in the habit of just going around and posting something completely irrelevant in all threads randomly? Just curious.
Hopper
Banned
I'm sorta thinkin that mebbe the Jazz could learn sumthin from a team like Spain, if they don't know it already. Why didn't Spain just fold and concede the game, I wonder?
I mean, like, if someone came on this board and announced that New Jersey had just acquired, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Howard, Carmello, Bosh, Deron, Paul, Billips, Boozer, Kidd, Prince, and Redd, the first reaction I would expect would be along the lines of: That's a dynasty! No other team can win the NBA now.
I really can't imagine someone sayin: "Hold on, now...who's the coach? Those guys won't win anything without a good coach." But Spain didn't just look at the talent on the USA's roster, and just fold. Why not?
Did they have any starters who could match up with Howard? With Lebron? With Kobe? With Wade? With Deron? Could their bench match up against the remaining players? I doubt it.
So why didn't they just concede? I don't mean forfeit the game, but why in the hell would they even bother to go out there and play hard and even "try" to win. Surely they knew it was impossible. Well, mebbe they didn't know that. Mebbe they had some guts, who knows?
I mean, like, if someone came on this board and announced that New Jersey had just acquired, Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Howard, Carmello, Bosh, Deron, Paul, Billips, Boozer, Kidd, Prince, and Redd, the first reaction I would expect would be along the lines of: That's a dynasty! No other team can win the NBA now.
I really can't imagine someone sayin: "Hold on, now...who's the coach? Those guys won't win anything without a good coach." But Spain didn't just look at the talent on the USA's roster, and just fold. Why not?
Did they have any starters who could match up with Howard? With Lebron? With Kobe? With Wade? With Deron? Could their bench match up against the remaining players? I doubt it.
So why didn't they just concede? I don't mean forfeit the game, but why in the hell would they even bother to go out there and play hard and even "try" to win. Surely they knew it was impossible. Well, mebbe they didn't know that. Mebbe they had some guts, who knows?
Hopper
Banned
I never wanted to discuss sumthin "completely irrelevant," VJ. Anyone who couldn't see the possible relevance between my questions and the first few posts in this thread needs an IQ test.
Hopper
Banned
VJ, you're the one who suggested that a team from a small country like Spain, which plays, if at all, in some candyass Euro league, could come close to beatin a 12-man deep all-NBA team simply because the NBA players were "bored" in what would be the equivalent of a game 7 in the NBA finals. If Spain can win for that reason, why not the Jazz? See the relevance?
Terrific post by the original poster.
I agree fully with his stance that the Jazz would need an excellent bigman in order to win the title today.
What i didn't know though is that 17% of those impact bigman played on the team that didn't draft them (16 out of 91).
That is the killer stat.
Every NBA team should take a good look at this statistic and act upon it.
If you really want to win the title, then you have to play the Pistons game cause no miracle will hapen (especially if you play in a market like Utah, Minneapolis, or Milwaukee for instance).
The Pistons way is the only way to get to the title if you happen not to be extremely lucky in the draft (or if you're just not in the lottery at all, like the Jazz pretty much).
However i disagree with the original poster about what the 2004 Pistons represent.
To him i think it's a group of "good but not elite" players, playing great team ball to win the title.
Not once in the original post he uttered the word that DEFINES the 2004 Pistons :
DEFENSE
The 2004 Pistons were not a great "team oriented team" .They were a great DEFENSIVE TEAM , period.
They may have pulled the best defensive season of all time.
At one point they held their opponents under 70pts 5 games in a row !!!!
It took the then double eastern conference defending champions playing at home to break the defensive streak .
The New Jersey Nets scored 71 ... at home...
The best thing was that despite losing by 20 points , New Jersey fouled intentionally at the end of the game in order to have a chance to beat the 70 mark and end the defensive streak of the Pistons. That's how impressive the Pistons defense was that year.
A few months later, Detroit held those same defending champions to 56 points in game 1 of their respective playoff series !
Detroit was not a "team oriented team" it was a crazy good defensive unit !
Can the Jazz become that kind of team ? It may not be easy , but it's sure is more easy than wait that a Tim Duncan or Shaquille O'neal falls to us in the NBA draft !!
Utah doesn't have 5 players capable of playing this level of defense. In the meantime, finding defensive gems, is much more easy than finding Hall Of famers big men !
Let me mention that before that 03/04 season, only Ben Wallace had already have All NBA Defensive Team selections. He was the only one at the time considered a defensive juggernaut. Next to him , Prince, Hamilton and Billups can't be called all time good defenders either.
So it's not like finding defenders on the level of those players is impossible for the Jazz.
Actually i think Utah already has one : Wesley Matthews. Deron Williams, also has the potential to reach Billups level on the defensive end.
But to reach that level, the Jazz first have to accept that the ONLY WAY to compete one day for the title is to play suffocating defense as a group.
They need to embrace this philosophy, period. Talent won't win us the title, we have to outhusstle the world.
In this sense , getting rid of Carlos Boozer is a VERY good thing, because this guy has hindered our defensive potential for 6 years now !
I can't wait to see what kind of defense will be played by the Jazz next season, with at least two players that have a very good defensive mentality (Matthews and Millsap), one player that still has DPOY potential...without the mentality (Kirilenko), and a franchise player that has all nba Defensive Team potential ... also without the mentality so far (Deron).
I agree fully with his stance that the Jazz would need an excellent bigman in order to win the title today.
What i didn't know though is that 17% of those impact bigman played on the team that didn't draft them (16 out of 91).
That is the killer stat.
Every NBA team should take a good look at this statistic and act upon it.
If you really want to win the title, then you have to play the Pistons game cause no miracle will hapen (especially if you play in a market like Utah, Minneapolis, or Milwaukee for instance).
The Pistons way is the only way to get to the title if you happen not to be extremely lucky in the draft (or if you're just not in the lottery at all, like the Jazz pretty much).
However i disagree with the original poster about what the 2004 Pistons represent.
To him i think it's a group of "good but not elite" players, playing great team ball to win the title.
Not once in the original post he uttered the word that DEFINES the 2004 Pistons :
DEFENSE
The 2004 Pistons were not a great "team oriented team" .They were a great DEFENSIVE TEAM , period.
They may have pulled the best defensive season of all time.
At one point they held their opponents under 70pts 5 games in a row !!!!
It took the then double eastern conference defending champions playing at home to break the defensive streak .
The New Jersey Nets scored 71 ... at home...
The best thing was that despite losing by 20 points , New Jersey fouled intentionally at the end of the game in order to have a chance to beat the 70 mark and end the defensive streak of the Pistons. That's how impressive the Pistons defense was that year.
A few months later, Detroit held those same defending champions to 56 points in game 1 of their respective playoff series !
Detroit was not a "team oriented team" it was a crazy good defensive unit !
Can the Jazz become that kind of team ? It may not be easy , but it's sure is more easy than wait that a Tim Duncan or Shaquille O'neal falls to us in the NBA draft !!
Utah doesn't have 5 players capable of playing this level of defense. In the meantime, finding defensive gems, is much more easy than finding Hall Of famers big men !
Let me mention that before that 03/04 season, only Ben Wallace had already have All NBA Defensive Team selections. He was the only one at the time considered a defensive juggernaut. Next to him , Prince, Hamilton and Billups can't be called all time good defenders either.
So it's not like finding defenders on the level of those players is impossible for the Jazz.
Actually i think Utah already has one : Wesley Matthews. Deron Williams, also has the potential to reach Billups level on the defensive end.
But to reach that level, the Jazz first have to accept that the ONLY WAY to compete one day for the title is to play suffocating defense as a group.
They need to embrace this philosophy, period. Talent won't win us the title, we have to outhusstle the world.
In this sense , getting rid of Carlos Boozer is a VERY good thing, because this guy has hindered our defensive potential for 6 years now !
I can't wait to see what kind of defense will be played by the Jazz next season, with at least two players that have a very good defensive mentality (Matthews and Millsap), one player that still has DPOY potential...without the mentality (Kirilenko), and a franchise player that has all nba Defensive Team potential ... also without the mentality so far (Deron).
Hopper
Banned
Most players and coaches who I've seen discuss the issue seem to agree that, while good defense takes talent," it is really primarily a question of effort and commitment as much as anything. It's even possible, I suppose, that Spain played better defense than the USA in that gold medal game.
Hopper
Banned
How far can heart, desire, resolve, intense effort, and courage take you, I wonder?
In military affairs, the conventional wisdom seems to be that, in any given battle, the defender has a natural advantage, all else being equal. This is especially true when the battleground is the defender's homeland.
A squad of draft-inducted soldiers ordered to attack an irregular vietnamese unit in its home village, where the wife, kids, mothers, fathers, relatives and lifelong friends of the soldier's live, will encounter an enemy that is extremely motivated to resist by any means and at all costs. Much more determined than the grunts who are simply trying to comply with orders. Can the natives' steel determination overcome superior firepower? Well, it may primarily depend on how "superior" the firepower is. They probably couldn't effectively resist a nuclear strike, for example.
In military affairs, the conventional wisdom seems to be that, in any given battle, the defender has a natural advantage, all else being equal. This is especially true when the battleground is the defender's homeland.
A squad of draft-inducted soldiers ordered to attack an irregular vietnamese unit in its home village, where the wife, kids, mothers, fathers, relatives and lifelong friends of the soldier's live, will encounter an enemy that is extremely motivated to resist by any means and at all costs. Much more determined than the grunts who are simply trying to comply with orders. Can the natives' steel determination overcome superior firepower? Well, it may primarily depend on how "superior" the firepower is. They probably couldn't effectively resist a nuclear strike, for example.
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Hopper
Banned
In the days preceding the outbreak of World War II, Churchill's precedessor, Neville Chamberlain, specialized in "negotiations" which made concession after concession to Hitler in order to maintain "peace in our time."
Churchill hadn't been Chamberlain's replacement for long before he sent Hitler a new message:
"Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail.
We shall go on to the end,
we shall fight in France,
we shall fight on the seas and oceans,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the hills;
we shall NEVER surrender..."
And ya know what? By God, he MEANT it.
Churchill hadn't been Chamberlain's replacement for long before he sent Hitler a new message:
"Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail.
We shall go on to the end,
we shall fight in France,
we shall fight on the seas and oceans,
we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be,
we shall fight on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the hills;
we shall NEVER surrender..."
And ya know what? By God, he MEANT it.
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