Some Things to Consider-- becoming the 04 Pistons

[Gyp Rosetti]

With the cap space we should have next summer, go after Horford and Perkins next summer. Neither will break the bank and both are very, very good defenders and tough as nails.

Williams-Price-
Matthews-2011 1st rounder
Miles-Hayward
Horford-Millsap-Tomic
Perkins-Okur (expiring)-Fes

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

If Matthews and Miles and Hayward can continue to develop some, this could be a hell of a team. Horford, at his more natural position of the 4, with a better point guard and more touches could be excellent here. Perkins is an enforcer.

 

[Hopper]

both are very, very good defenders and tough as nails.

I don't never watches them guys, Killa, but if that's true, theys our boyz, sho nuff, I figure.

 

[write4u]

Joker, I wouldn't say Kosta is just terrible. If he plays like he did in the summer league, he'll be getting minutes ahead of the Fes that played in the playoffs. You can tell he is working hard. He has bulked up some and his body looks very cut now.

 

[cowhide]

I've made this (or similar) comment(s) many times on this board, but I will do it again, just for the hell of it. Miami now has 3 of the top ten players in the league, which is obviously very favorable for them. But guess what? The Olympic team probably had at least 12 of the top 15 players in the whole NBA, and arguably, in the world. But they still barely beat Spain in the championship game. Why is that?

Because it was one game and played under International rules. Did you forget the first game when the USA blew out the Spanish team. Besides, Spain had a lot of NBA talent too. So it's not like we were playing against the Spain team that had no NBA talent. However, i get your point that it is possible for the less talent team to beat a "superstar" team. In the NBA it is just a lot harder because championships are not one game events.

 

[Hopper]

Spain had a lot of NBA talent too. So it's not like we were playing against the Spain team that had no NBA talent.

Spain had Gasol, admittedly a top-tier NBA player, but, really, who else? Caulderon was injured and didn't play. Rudy Fernandez? He doesn't even play starter minutes for Portland and averages less than 10 pts/g. I always sense a double standard here. If I suggested, as you do, that the reason the Jazz have a chance to beat the Lakers is because the Jazz have "NBA talent," the only response I would expect would be along the lines of "Are you tryin to say that Memo is as good as Gasol!? That Matthews can match up with Kobe!? That Boozer is a match for Bynum/Odum," etc. In other words, the very same reasoning which is advanced to explain why Spain can compete with team USA is used to conclude that the Jazz CANNOT compete with the Lakers.

However, i get your point that it is possible for the less talent team to beat a "superstar" team.

Well, most would concede that even highly improbable events are at least theoretically "possible." I'm really looking for explanations as to why Spain was able to fight team USA to the end and have a legitimate shot at actually winnin. It has been noted that the US beat Spain rather handily, even when Spain had a full roster, earlier. Isn't that just all the more reason for Spain to "pack it in," ala Lebron James, and quit trying? I mean, isn't it more dignified for Spain to concede the game, and not look like fools tryin hard to win--thereby givin the appearance that they are so stupid that they think effort will make any difference against all that talent? Who wants to look foolish?

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

The best team the Jazz can field by a year from now, barring some miracle trade, would be:

Tomic/Gortat
Millsap/AK
AK/Miles
Matthews/Hayward
Deron/TBD

Several of these players are young and still improving. Tomic is the best chance for the Jazz to have their own version of Pau Gasol. But picking up Gortat or Marc Gasol is not a bad idea. If the Jazz can pick up a decent PF/C along the way, they ought to do that as well.

Oh, and while that's a decent team, I'm not sure it would necessarily beat the Thunder, the Heat, the Lakers, Dallas, or Orlando. I think it's a playoff team though -- 1st or 2nd round. We should be on par with the Bulls and the Hawks.

 

[Hopper]

The best team the Jazz can field by a year from now, barring some miracle trade, would be...and while that's a decent team, I'm not sure it would necessarily beat the Thunder, the Heat, the Lakers, Dallas, or Orlando.

Assuming that the Jazz re-sign Matthews, I see the new "core" of this team as consisting of Deron, Matthews, and the Paperboy--all fierce competitors who don't quit. I think Matthews is a natural leader, even at his young age. Millsap leads by example, if nuthin else.

AK, Fess, and Memo are soft-*** Euro's with skillz (well, potential skillz in Fess's case), but not enough heart. Honzward is promising to fit in well with the Deron/Matthews/Millsap crew, though. Price busts his *** and his hustle has helped us get back into a few games. If the Jazz can pick up a mean-***, competent center and otherwise parlay AK's expiring contract into some tough, hard-working players, the Jazz could be a very promising team.

With Sloan's system in place, and Deron runnin it, offense really shouldn't be a serious problem. It doesn't even require outstanding one-on-one skillz for it to work. Defense, commitment, and effort, from the WHOLE team, not just a few key members, is what has been missin most (this includes Boozer), if you ax me.

 

[Deleted member 95]

Assuming that the Jazz re-sign Matthews, I see the new "core" of this team as consisting of Deron, Matthews, and the Paperboy--all fierce competitors who don't quit. I think Matthews is a natural leader, even at his young age. Millsap leads by example, if nuthin else.

AK, Fess, and Memo are soft-*** Euro's with skillz (well, potential skillz in Fess's case), but not enough heart. Honzward is promising to fit in well with the Deron/Matthews/Millsap crew, though. Price busts his *** and his hustle has helped us get back into a few games. If the Jazz can pick up a mean-***, competent center and otherwise parlay AK's expiring contract into some tough, hard-working players, the Jazz could be a very promising team.

With Sloan's system in place, and Deron runnin it, offense really shouldn't be a serious problem. It doesn't even require outstanding one-on-one skillz for it to work. Defense, commitment, and effort, from the WHOLE team, not just a few key members, is what has been missin most (this includes Boozer), if you ax me.

I agree with your post, Ain't.

 

[The Thriller]

The 04 Pistons had Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace at their 4 and 5 position. Both were probably top 5 defensive players at that time. Take into account that Billips was probably the best defensive player at his position, Rip wasn't bad, and Prince was pretty good, that was one solid team.

We have Boom Bitches and the Paperboy down low.

while I agree that our strategy might be our best option, we desperately need a talented big man.

 

[G-O-A-T]

Why the Piston's were good: See troy's post for defensive analysis

On the offensive end, the Piston's had one leader, who fortunately, for the Pistons, made good decisions and shared the ball with his teammates. The team accepted the fact that there would be no superstars, and instead thrived on their ability to share the "glory" of scoring. And because everyone was happy with a role, rather than a spotlight, they were all happy to play the game hard on both ends of the court.

Why the Olympian's aren't that dominant:

The Olympian's are an all star team
All Star teams are composed, almost exclusively, of the best offensive players (Boozer made it twice)
Offense is only played during 50% of the game
Offensive stats typically require having control of the basketball and taking a lot of shots
But there is only one basketball on the court at any given time
Because there is only one ball, only one star can exist at a time
Thus, because of the inherent rules of the game, the offensive star power brought to these games is significantly diminished.

On the defensive end:

Great offense doesn't necessarily translate into great defense
All 5 teammates are required to play defense for 1/2 the game
There is little to no chemistry between the teammates because they don't play with eachother often
Many of these all stars are primadonnas who don't care about defense anyways
Thus, even though they have the athletic skills to be a great defensive team, they are mediocre

Ultimately though, because of the US's far superior athletic skills, they can win games against better "teams", and that's why they still do relatively well in the Olympics.

Translating this logic to the Heat and the rest of the NBA would be futile though... because of the added factor of "star treatment" in the NBA. Three stars (2 of them superstars) on one team means that the league office WILL NOT ALLOW the Heat to lose many games. I wouldn't be surprised to see several games where entire teams foul out trying to play defense. It just wouldn't be good for business to let the poster children of the NBA have "average" stats...

 

[Hopper]

If, for some reason, you don't like the 04 Pistons as a model, then how about the "bad boy" Pistons from the 80's, eh? Mahorn, Rodman, Laimbeer, James Edwards, and them: Who were they, as individual players, really, know what I'm sayin? How could Thomas take them kinda guys in against Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and the rest on those great Laker teams and give them hell?

There's sumthin goin on there beyond mere "individual talent" as seen "on paper," in the abstract.

 

[Hopper]

Why the Piston's were good: See troy's post for defensive analysis



Why the Olympian's aren't that dominant:

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Goat, especially as it pertains to the Olympic team. I don't agree with you 100% but I like your attempt to analyze and consider a multitude of complex factors, as opposed to just one obvious (but basically irrelevant) "difference" between olympic play/players, in the attempt to explain the situation.

 

[DWill_Gr8tness]

Its simple. . . Some teams work hard and try to win, others have talent and expect to win. The olympic team simply expected to win.

 

[G-O-A-T]

AK, Fess, and Memo are soft-*** Euro's with skillz (well, potential skillz in Fess's case), but not enough heart. Honzward is promising to fit in well with the Deron/Matthews/Millsap crew, though. Price busts his *** and his hustle has helped us get back into a few games. If the Jazz can pick up a mean-***, competent center and otherwise parlay AK's expiring contract into some tough, hard-working players, the Jazz could be a very promising team.

With Sloan's system in place, and Deron runnin it, offense really shouldn't be a serious problem. It doesn't even require outstanding one-on-one skillz for it to work. Defense, commitment, and effort, from the WHOLE team, not just a few key members, is what has been missin most (this includes Boozer), if you ax me.

If we had a legit defensive minded / rebounding center the last few years, instead of Memo, I'm pretty sure we would have made it into a few NBA finals, if not won it all. I can only assume that when KOC brought Memo in from Detroit he thought Memo would bring some of the piston D with him... then again, the fact that Memo was extended is beyond my reasoning

 

[The-Joker]

When Hollinger did his team analysis of the greatest teams of all time, he docked the Pistons 100 points for not being exciting enough. I thought that was total BS, because although I wasn't alive during the BadBoys era. The pistons in each of their title runs in the 80's early 90's and middle of the Aughts, were one of the only teams that brought the brotherhood and chemistry aspect to the game, these teams were professional teams in a collegiate atmosphere, and thats what was great about them.

Like hopper said, it was the defense aspect which made them a team. And it is defense which needs to make us a team, or we'll be doomed to be a first and second round exit team. We have the talent to make the playoffs, Boozer's departure according to the statistics marginally improves our efficiency, so I don't expect us to be any worse off. A poster said instead of winning 100-95 we might win 90-85 or so, however our relentless assist style offense will always propel us to score, but its the other end where we change tiers to being elite.
With that being said...
We have players who can accomplish this, the key is not falling victim to exchanging them for ones who have greater impact on the offensive side, but cripple us defensively.

DWill can body up any point guard in the league, but also has the quickness to stop from getting beat.
AK was the best team defense player in the league at one time, expect him to resume his dominance without the Matador filling up his lane.
Millsap, although prone to fouling, gives all out hustle without fail giving him way above average rebounding numbers and blocks. His lack of athleticism prevent him from being an elite defender like Ben Wallace, but he can make up for it in heart.
Wes Matthews -- a rookie who could hold his own against Kobe. Nuff said. Lebron got lit up like a christmas tree by kobe in his rookie season, if I remember correctly. He needs to be resigned, we can't let him get away.
Hayward- people rave about his defensive ability, and he needs to keep that chip on his shoulder that we boo'd him, and not worry about scoring points, but playing D.
Ronnie Price- his tenacity alone has given him several blocks on taller players on the break, his greatest feature is that tenacity, and I don't think there are better back ups in the league, who come out and show as much heart.

I haven't seen much from CJ on the defensive end, and its where he needs to improve. I wouldn't look to deal him, because he is deeply talented and motivated.
Okur opens up the offense by playing outside, but he is white and slow. He's a back and forth type player that gives up almost as many points as he creates. But he has that killer facet of his game, that makes him so valuable. I would deal him, but only for a defensive center over 7 ft. Maybe he'll show some d this year, with guys like AK showing the example.
Koufos and Fes are terrible, I haven't watched summer league this year, but i have to see some serious improvement from them, before i even dare throw them a bone.

Since Korver and Booze are gone, and it is unknown the state of Jeffers and Sundial... but additions of Hayward and Evans (all indications point to us signign him) we need to fill 2 positions. I'd throw a bone at Ronnie Brewer, because his defense was rock hard too and he knows what is expected of him. I'd fill the last position searching for the best big man we can get while staying under our cap goals.

And it may be a year before we can do anything because of AK's contract, but we sure as hell have to try.

 

[vj_74]

I never wanted to discuss sumthin "completely irrelevant," VJ. Anyone who couldn't see the possible relevance between my questions and the first few posts in this thread needs an IQ test.

Huh.. you were claiming all along that you were just asking a question and it didnt have to be relevant to this thread. I even posted on what you were trying to drive at and you ignored it and kept asking the same question again and again. I am not sure who needs the IQ test here. And I am still not sure what Spain has got to do with the Jazz becoming the 2004 Pistons

 

[vj_74]

VJ, you're the one who suggested that a team from a small country like Spain, which plays, if at all, in some candyass Euro league, could come close to beatin a 12-man deep all-NBA team simply because the NBA players were "bored" in what would be the equivalent of a game 7 in the NBA finals. If Spain can win for that reason, why not the Jazz? See the relevance?

No relevance to this thread. We are talking about whether the Jazz could/should follow the 2004 Pistons model of building a championship team rather than just buying stars like the Heat or the Lakers. So that Spain analogy you got going is not relevant here. Also the fact that Olympics is a totally different scenario altogether compared to the NBA. First of all Olympics is not a best of 7, and on a given night any team can play better than they are supposed to and the other team a little poorer than they are supposed to .Who knows what the outcome would have been if USA had played Spain 7 times? Maybe 4-0 with 2 or 3 blowouts. NBA is a totally different setup and competition. For that matter the Jazz play the Lakers tough too most of the times in the playoffs when healthy.You could say that games were mostly close, but the outcome of the series was always the same. The Lakers have never needed more than 6 games to dispatch us.
The topic in hand is that to become the 2004 Pistons you really need good defensive players who can also put the ball in the hoop.Just heart and hustle ain't enough. Harp had it in plenty and he was getting burned on most nights.

 

[Hopper]

Huh.. you were claiming all along that you were just asking a question and it didnt have to be relevant to this thread.

I said I didn't have point to make, VJ, and was just seekin answers at that point. I try to gather relevant information BEFORE I attempt to make any point, if that's what I ultimately want to do. By the same token, I don't refuse, unless and until I know exactly why the other person is asking, to answer questions when I feel like I have an appropriate response Their reason for asking is irrelevant, unless mebbe I'm a criminal who is making up a cover story and want to be extra careful that I don't answer question B in some way that might be inconsistent with the answer I already gave to question A.

I didn't really wanna be rude, with the IQ, thing, VJ, but you showed me no courtesy whatsoever when you undertook to TELL (not even ask) me what my intentions were, so you asked for it, I figure.

I am not sure who needs the IQ test here. And I am still not sure what Spain has got to do with the Jazz becoming the 2004 Pistons

And mebbe you never will be, eh?

 

[Hopper]

People who don't have the capacity or facility for seeing the implicit relationships between things cannot see relevance, VJ, any more than a blind man can see the sky. Fortunately, the sky is still there, either way.