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Terrorism in Charleston, SC

CNN is reporting he said he wanted to start a race war. If that's not terror I don't know what is.

Terrorism: the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

Hate Crime: a usually violent, prejudice motivated crime that occurs when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group.

I guess there is an argument for both. Does the article mention why he wanted a war? or what he'd get out of it?
 
Siro - how you can dispute this fact either means you haven't read the witness accounts, or are in some deranged state of denial.

Pandering to the lowest common denominator?

One more link, for good measure:

https://kcur.org/post/what-difference-between-hate-crime-and-act-terrorism

Hate crime:

additional charge that adds severity of punishment
used to send a message to perpetrators, victims and other community members who share the identity
often spontaneous and fueled by drugs/alcohol

Terrorism:

orchestrated and often part of a series of events
often associated with formal organization or group
may mobilize an entire response force (FBI, U.S. Army)

Which one is the better fit?
 
https://www.cnn.com/2015/06/19/us/charleston-church-shooting-main/



Sounds more prejudiced than politically motivated to me, but there's still the argument... is there a reason these two would be mutually exclusive?

Except that terrorism is an organized effort to disrupt people's daily lives in order to force a set of political/ideological outcomes. It takes a lot of stretching to make this fit the definition of an act of terror. What are his goals? To "punish" black people for what he sees as taking over the country. You can try to make the case that he's trying to invite retaliation and start a cycle of violence (what he calls race war), but that sounds more like the justification of someone committing a crime of hate than realistic ideological aspirations. For it to be an act of terror, the crime must be secondary to the ideological aims. Here, the crime is its own aim.
 
I vote not terrorism
 
Except that terrorism is an organized effort to disrupt people's daily lives in order to force a set of political/ideological outcomes. It takes a lot of stretching to make this fit the definition of an act of terror. What are his goals? To "punish" black people for what he sees as taking over the country. You can try to make the case that he's trying to invite retaliation and start a cycle of violence (what he calls race war), but that sounds more like the justification of someone committing a crime of hate than realistic ideological aspirations. For it to be an act of terror, the crime must be secondary to the ideological aims. Here, the crime is its own aim.

In his own words, he wants to start a war, and he wants to reinstate segregation. Do you see how that, to some, could sound politically motivated?

I'm still leaning more heavily towards Hate crime, btw.
 
In his own words, he wants to start a war, and he wants to reinstate segregation. Do you see how that, to some, could sound politically motivated?

I'm still leaning more heavily towards Hate crime, btw.

Is he trying to start a war on his own?

Does he have some organization that will back him up in this war?

If he's alone it's a hate crime.
If he's organized and has people that will keep this "war" going then there might be an argument for terrorism.

As of now he's in custody and so he can't keep a war going alone.

I'm with you though, I see the point and agree it seems a hate crime to me.
 
In his own words, he wants to start a war, and he wants to reinstate segregation. Do you see how that, to some, could sound politically motivated?

I'm still leaning more heavily towards Hate crime, btw.

Like I said, a case can be made. It is a weak case, however, because it stretches the definition beyond usefulness. For example, a person who kills a homosexual because he wants them to be afraid to appear in public can also be considered a terrorist under this definition. A gangster who shoots another gangster over a territorial dispute can be considered a terrorist fighting over geopolitical ideology. It is simply a useless way of looking at it, and it is simply an emotional response because labeling something as "terrorism" sounds like a bigger deal than just a hate crime.

But it is important to keep the two separate because of how each should be handled. The ideological drivers of terrorism must be taken very seriously in our cost/benefit analysis of the response. In this case, such analysis is useless as the "motivation" is not legitimately political. With Irish terrorism back in the day, the English were forced to weigh their actions in Ireland against the cost of IRA terror. With Muslim terrorism, we are confronted daily about how to neuter Islamist movements and re-evaluate our involvement in the region. With this, what can be gained by taking the ideology seriously in our formulating a response? Are we to consider re-segregating in order to prevent future incidents? Will we form an anti-race war militia? No. The ideology is rooted in self delusion and thus lack the numerical backing to be taken into consideration.
 
Terrorism: the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

Hate Crime: a usually violent, prejudice motivated crime that occurs when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her perceived membership in a certain social group.

I guess there is an argument for both. Does the article mention why he wanted a war? or what he'd get out of it?

Hate terrorism.
 
It is interesting how people delude themselves. He is not the first person who thought a lone act of violence would precipitate all out war. Manson preached the same thing, as have others.
 
I don't know if that is a fair analysis heyalt. "Burnout" is so common here that everyone just nods and looks sad when it is mentioned that someone who gets between 5 and 10 weeks of vacation a year has burnout and has to take another 2-3 months off for treatment. Racial attitudes are not necessarily better or worse but different, and more widely held. When I mentioned to more than a few people that the apartment building we were moving into originally had been taken over by the state for a home for refugees they were at first not very happy about these, well more or less black, countries that were running rampant into Germany, then backpedaled about how sad it is for them to lose their home. Here is one article about the rallies there have been in Germany, both for and against open immigration. To say it is less of an issue is not truly representative imo.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/06/world/europe/pegida-rally-dresden-germany.html?_r=0

I said racial dysfunction I didn't say attitudes. It's less of an issue because Germany is more homogenous. According to Wiki: "As of 2005, there were approximately 500,000 Afro-Germans in a nation of 80 million." Compare that to the roughly 12-13% of Americans that identify as Black. They just don't have to face their attitudes towards race nearly as much as Americans do.

Please every one understand that I actually like the diversity of America. I am simply saying that our history combined with that melting pot sometimes causes a volatile reaction.
 
Like I said, a case can be made. It is a weak case, however, because it stretches the definition beyond usefulness. For example, a person who kills a homosexual because he wants them to be afraid to appear in public can also be considered a terrorist under this definition. A gangster who shoots another gangster over a territorial dispute can be considered a terrorist fighting over geopolitical ideology. It is simply a useless way of looking at it, and it is simply an emotional response because labeling something as "terrorism" sounds like a bigger deal than just a hate crime.

But it is important to keep the two separate because of how each should be handled. The ideological drivers of terrorism must be taken very seriously in our cost/benefit analysis of the response. In this case, such analysis is useless as the "motivation" is not legitimately political. With Irish terrorism back in the day, the English were forced to weigh their actions in Ireland against the cost of IRA terror. With Muslim terrorism, we are confronted daily about how to neuter Islamist movements and re-evaluate our involvement in the region. With this, what can be gained by taking the ideology seriously in our formulating a response? Are we to consider re-segregating in order to prevent future incidents? Will we form an anti-race war militia? No. The ideology is rooted in self delusion and thus lack the numerical backing to be taken into consideration.

It's probably more valuable to deal with the issues in Charleston than it is to worry about Islamist movements who hates Americans.
 
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