Terrorism in Charleston, SC

[BabyPeterzz]

I'm sorry, I was rude and didn't realize that you have connections to those harmed. The whole media circus thing came to town here in Tucson and left me with a bad taste in my mouth about the whole thing. We had a televised townhall with Christine Amanpour where the people who went through the ordeal told their story. That was great. Then they brought out the national gun control advocates to take over the rest of the meeting which pissed off most of us there. After that I have always been suspicious about which crimes get the "treatment" and which are lost into the ether. Absolutely we need to find out why this boy, who looks like he came from a good family with plenty of integration, took the road he did. I just bristle at those who would lump him into "southern culture" at large. That crap isn't helpful.

Thanks, nice post.

 

[Stoked]

Stop taking it so personally. I never said it was "just white racists". I said we have a problem with white, racist, gun toting mass murderers.

I didn't take it personal. I'm not a white, racist, mass murderer.
I'm just point out that it is less of a problem then all the other deaths be people that don't fit that mold. Substantially less of a problem.

Since you said that in reply to those blaming it on mental illness it seemed, to me at least, that you were blaming it all on that group. If you are not then fair enough.

But in the total number of gun related deaths those by white racist mass murderers is such a small % that it's silly to focus on that v. Gun violence among "normal" people.

I didn't take anything personal and hope you don't either. I'm not attacking you. Just don't agree with your post.

 

[Deleted member 848]

You have failed to provide any nuanced positions either. Stop painting with a broad brush. You're better than that.

I gave you some general points but I'd hope you'd know that I have more detailed thoughts than that.

Umm I have-- in fact I went over why your propositions to "improve mental health" are categorically insufficient.

From post #60 of this thread, in response to your general desires to "improve mental health" (which will, trust me, never happen in a conservative government dead-set on reducing spending-- which applies to most American political parties at the moment).

Unfortunately the government simply doesn't have the money to properly fund mental health nation-wide. Hence, reliance on private investment for medical research. Unfortunately, private investment in medical research is often done with the implication of a profitable pharmaceutical being produced, which would go against your desires of over-medicalizing illnesses.



With how stigmatizing mental health is in its current form, this would potentially cripple the ability of those suffering from mental illnesses to feel like first class citizens in this society.



I think much of America's struggle with booming mental health difficulties is a symptom of the sociopolitical system set in place. In a capitalistic society with success discretely defined as a measure of economic wealth, the inability to equally distribute this resource to all creates a society of have and have nots, to varying extents.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Would the ****storm be justified?

you're not thinking deeply here. If a muslim committed this atrocity, the faith would take the brunt of the blame, as opposed to the person. Everyone would be using it as an excuse to justify the 'reprehensible evil of Islam', with every Republican double-downing on their already announced dislike for those practicing the Muslim faith. If a black person shot up a white church, people would blame black cultural leaders and activists, saying that "racializing american social problems has lead to this".

White dude commits a murder-- and he's just automatically considered mentally ill. No ifs, ands, or buts.

It's like only white people can be considered mentally ill when they shoot up a ton of people.

 

[Stoked]

Gov does have the money to do that actually. They simply waste it on other areas. Not to mention the millions poured in by charities to various causes like breast cancer and autism.

By linking mental health to background checks I was specifically referring to gun purchases.

Personally if anyone shoots up a bunch of people like this they have to have something wrong with them mentally. Regardless of reason or motivation. Race is unimportant in that aspect.

I can agree with the haves and have nots part. so many things play into this. I also agree on Islam taking a hit when this happens but part of that lies with the murders who do so loudly proclaiming that are doing so in their gods name. Part of it lies with the media coverage and the repeated blame laying. I see that as a shared blame. %s can be argued I'm sure.

Edit: always insightful Dala. Thanks for the replies.

 

[fishonjazz]

you're not thinking deeply here. If a muslim committed this atrocity, the faith would take the brunt of the blame, as opposed to the person. Everyone would be using it as an excuse to justify the 'reprehensible evil of Islam', with every Republican double-downing on their already announced dislike for those practicing the Muslim faith. If a black person shot up a white church, people would blame black cultural leaders and activists, saying that "racializing american social problems has lead to this".

White dude commits a murder-- and he's just automatically considered mentally ill. No ifs, ands, or buts.

It's like only white people can be considered mentally ill when they shoot up a ton of people.

Ya, I agree

 

[♪alt13]

Placing every mass shooting at the feet of the mentally ill is unfair and lazy. This kid for instance was a racist loner looking to kill black people and start a race war.

While mental illness may be partly to blame, our countries inability to come to terms with its deep rooted racism, violent gun culture, and total apathy and inaction towards these problems is America's problem.

I agree with Dal, those clamoring for gun rights, and those claiming religious persecution for that matter, blaming the mental health of Americans as the sole reason for these things, are only trying to deflect the truth. This country has a problem with white, racist, gun toting mass murderers.

I agree with you to an extent. I don't know how you can have such a strong critique of the sanity of our society and not equate that with mental illness. This kid was mentally ill. He had an illness that he contracted from our society. Most people when they talk about the mental illness bit really only want to treat the symptoms and the symptomatic. They seem to be generally oblivious to the root causes.
The gun control crowd's solution is just as far off base. They seem to be more aware of the causes but more often than not ignore them when these things happen in favor of focusing on the outcome. The idea that we are not going to have white, racist, bomb toting mass murders if we make guns illegal is just simply delusional. Mass murder is a social problem not a weapon problem. Crazy societies have mass murderers by the bunches. It is lazy to say "make guns illegal, no more mass murder". That's just not the way it works. Personally I'm not looking forward to gas attacks, bombings, and shootings committed with illegal weapons once guns are banned.
So yeah, let's talk about income inequality. Let's talk about an education system that creates a categorical connection of blacks with slaves at an early age. Let's talk about better mental health services. Yes we can talk about the age of an adult and when a person is old enough to purchase a weapon. We can talk about the criminal liability of not properly securing a firearm.
But we shouldn't be delusional. We should also talk about why blacks have such a high rate of violence. We should talk about the thousands of blacks killed by other blacks every year. Is it because it is easier for blacks to buy guns? Is it because blacks have more guns than whites? or could it be because we are further from the end of the civil rights movement than we are from it's beginning?

 

[♪alt13]

you're not thinking deeply here. If a muslim committed this atrocity, the faith would take the brunt of the blame, as opposed to the person. Everyone would be using it as an excuse to justify the 'reprehensible evil of Islam', with every Republican double-downing on their already announced dislike for those practicing the Muslim faith. If a black person shot up a white church, people would blame black cultural leaders and activists, saying that "racializing american social problems has lead to this".

White dude commits a murder-- and he's just automatically considered mentally ill. No ifs, ands, or buts.

It's like only white people can be considered mentally ill when they shoot up a ton of people.

Radical Islam is a communicable mental illnesses. So is white supremacist bull ****.

 

[RandyForRubio]

I think anybody who believes in a religion or ideology where you have to kill people has some mental problems.

 

[RandyForRubio]

I think one of the coolest things about this is the victims family forgiving the killer and asking him to repent and come to Jesus. Shows a true faithfulness and forgiving heart. How I wish to love and forgive like that. What they are doing is truly humbling and powerful.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I think anybody who believes in a religion or ideology where you have to kill people has some mental problems.

Or they're being manipulated by heavy propaganda, in response to conditions that they think are due to the people they are fighting against.

If we take Islamic extremism as an example-- a lot of people are growingnly considering it a retaliatory phenomenon. It's so easy for those in power in the Middle East to blame the West for all their problems. Think of the impacts colonialism had-- or how their number one ally in the M.E. is the most oppressive government in the region-- or how they've historically had unconditional support for a nation that treats its Arab minority like second class citizens.


Hate and evil never exist in a vacuum. Any ideology or religion will be used to justify violence, if violence is what is desired by the people practicing it. There are marauding Buddhist monks in Myanmar rampantly killing their minority Muslim population, and evicting them. Is Buddhism inherently violent?

 

[Deleted member 848]

Radical Islam is a communicable mental illnesses. So is white supremacist bull ****.

No it's a means to an end created in response to changing extant conditions that go against their desires.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Or they're being manipulated by heavy propaganda, in response to conditions that they think are due to the people they are fighting against.

If we take Islamic extremism as an example-- a lot of people are growingnly considering it a retaliatory phenomenon. It's so easy for those in power in the Middle East to blame the West for all their problems. Think of the impacts colonialism had-- or how their number one ally in the M.E. is the most oppressive government in the region-- or how they've historically had unconditional support for a nation that treats its Arab minority like second class citizens.


Hate and evil never exist in a vacuum. Any ideology or religion will be used to justify violence, if violence is what is desired by the people practicing it. There are marauding Buddhist monks in Myanmar rampantly killing their minority Muslim population, and evicting them. Is Buddhism inherently violent?

This probably sounds rude and insensitive, but any time a religion commands its followers to kill unbelievers, it's going to be violent at heart. They can blame it on the west, their leaders, whoever they want, but at the end of the day they're still following the commandments of the book of the religion they follow.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Gov does have the money to do that actually. They simply waste it on other areas. Not to mention the millions poured in by charities to various causes like breast cancer and autism.

You underestimate how incredibly expensive research is. Our lab easily reels in 1-2 million dollars in fundraising each year, and we burn through it in months.

By linking mental health to background checks I was specifically referring to gun purchases.

Oh okay, Kinda surprised something like this isn't in place already. But then again you also have the huge problem of how many people with mental illnesses go completely diagnosed, out of refusal to seek therapy. Particularly a problem among men.

Personally if anyone shoots up a bunch of people like this they have to have something wrong with them mentally. Regardless of reason or motivation. Race is unimportant in that aspect.

I think so, in the extent that we aren't born conditioned to kill one another (just my opinion). But, there are a few ways that people can come to terms with this-- ideological manipulation, mental illness, and so on.

I can agree with the haves and have nots part. so many things play into this. I also agree on Islam taking a hit when this happens but part of that lies with the murders who do so loudly proclaiming that are doing so in their gods name. Part of it lies with the media coverage and the repeated blame laying. I see that as a shared blame. %s can be argued I'm sure.

Edit: always insightful Dala. Thanks for the replies.

Likewise

 

[framer]

One of the easiest things that could be done that would really make a difference is to have the media agree to stop making these people famous. Stop putting their names in the marquee lights. Stop trying to understand their struggle in your pages and semi-justifying it, and most of all STOP PUTING THEM ON YOUR COVER LOOKING LIKE A DAMN POP STAR, Rolling Stone.

 

[Deleted member 848]

This probably sounds rude and insensitive, but any time a religion commands its followers to kill unbelievers, it's going to be violent at heart. They can blame it on the west, their leaders, whoever they want, but at the end of the day they're still following the commandments of the book of the religion they follow.

If you bothered to contextually analyze the Quran you would understand why this simply isn't true, and why Christian and Jewish minorities have lived next-door to Muslim families in the Middle East for 2000 years. Can Christian European nations make the same claim? What happened to the massive Muslim populations of Italy and Spain?

 

[framer]

I think one of the coolest things about this is the victims family forgiving the killer and asking him to repent and come to Jesus. Shows a true faithfulness and forgiving heart. How I wish to love and forgive like that. What they are doing is truly humbling and powerful.

And the fact that this isn't the biggest part of the story at this point in time is absolutely criminal. That is the most amazing part of everything that has happened and the part that most of us need to hear, especially now.

 

[Stoked]

I expect the research I'm talkin of to cost hundreds of billions Dala. I don't under estimate it at all. I'd simply take from the billions the gov is spending that I don't agree with. Like all the foreign aid, useless military spending (I'm not anti military, far from it actually), bad research projects...

 

[framer]

If you bothered to contextually analyze the Quran you would understand why this simply isn't true, and why Christian and Jewish minorities have lived next-door to Muslim families in the Middle East for 2000 years. Can Christian European nations make the same claim? What happened to the massive Muslim populations of Italy and Spain?

Don't know much about Italy, but the "tolerant' Moorish rulers in Spain (who obtained that rule via conquest) were overthrown and expelled by the indigenous population after their leadership became more radicalized (destroying the previous leadership) in the Moslem faith during the twelfth century. The Almohad Caliphate was not made up of fuzzy warm people and deserved the beating they received. Every once in a while I fire up Crusader Kings 2 and throw their ***** off the Iberian peninsula myself. Also, you need to note that the Almohads declared Jihad and advanced on the Christian rulers of Castille, Aragorn, Portugal and Navarre FIRST. Had they not done that there is probably little chance that the four kingdoms could have ever worked together to expel the Moors from Spain.

 

[BabyPeterzz]

Let's lighten things up with some good ol Dutchrudder neg rep:

The rebel flag is not a symbol of racism. learn your history BRO. if any the slave ship had the stripes and stars. the rebel flag was on none of the slave ships