Ron is in catharsis. Please listen to him, or at least pretend to be understanding.
Thank God for Trump reality thread
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Ron is in catharsis. Please listen to him, or at least pretend to be understanding.
So let me restate the thesis behind this thread. Even Bill and Hillary attended the inauguration, along with Pelosi and Reid. It happened. This is reality.
Catharsis is the process by which we work through stunned disbelief and denial. We have to talk about it.
Some years ago I had a terrible accident on the highways, from going oh maybe 100 and losing it, somersaulting end on end through the sage. A stunned passerby, a drug runner I'm sure, stopped to see my body. I was hanging upside down in my seat belt, and within the smashed up truck. He couldn't see me, but called out "Anyone there?". My dog, of course, thrown out had landed on his rump and taken off for Timbuktu, and who knows, maybe I was scattered in the sage in pieces. I said I was, I just needed to get out somehow. Well, he got me out through a window, gave me the shirt off his back to use as a tourniquet, and called the Highway Patrol. And listened. When the HP lights appeared over the hill some miles away, he skeedaddled.
The Patrolman took me to town, and listened all the way. When I got around to apologizing for rambling on about it all, he stated it was OK. In his experience, people who talked a lot never went into shock, so he was glad I was talking.
Folks, this thread is for you.
Catharsis is the process by which we work through stunned disbelief and denial. We have to talk about it.
Some years ago I had a terrible accident on the highways, from going oh maybe 100 and losing it, somersaulting end on end through the sage. A stunned passerby, a drug runner I'm sure, stopped to see my body. I was hanging upside down in my seat belt, and within the smashed up truck. He couldn't see me, but called out "Anyone there?". My dog, of course, thrown out had landed on his rump and taken off for Timbuktu, and who knows, maybe I was scattered in the sage in pieces. I said I was, I just needed to get out somehow. Well, he got me out through a window, gave me the shirt off his back to use as a tourniquet, and called the Highway Patrol. And listened. When the HP lights appeared over the hill some miles away, he skeedaddled.
The Patrolman took me to town, and listened all the way. When I got around to apologizing for rambling on about it all, he stated it was OK. In his experience, people who talked a lot never went into shock, so he was glad I was talking.
Folks, this thread is for you.
Red
Well-Known Member
Although the demonstrations in major cities were planned in advance, the turnout stunned everybody. Yes, there was carthasis. But, I believe the crowds would have been a degree smaller had Trump, in the 2+ months since the election, had bothered at all to actually speak to the 65 million+ people who voted against him. Even in the inaugural address, it was basically just another campaign speech. He was speaking to his followers and I have seen it described as the "ugliest", "angriest", "darkest" such address anyone had ever heard at an inauguration. I do honestly believe he is acting more like the center of a cult of personality then a President for all Americans.
And now we see a war against the media and a Press Secretary unhinged toward the mainstream media.
It remains to be seen if the demonstrations were simply a one day carthasis or the beginning of a movement in response to what Trump seems to represent, relative to authoritarian rule, relative to a diverse society. I believe there are millions of people in America prepared to stand up to what we see happening. As I've said elsewhere, I think you have a naive opinion of Trump. A good handle on the rise of populism, but a naive opinion of Trump.
DutchJazzer
Banned
i don't care these people are fascist. voting is only good if the results AGREE with their viewpoint!
usa is not a democracy! it is a REPUBLIC. these people are worried for naught, there are checks and balances! at worst if all 3 branches of government turn on the people. you got your 2nd amendment to take **** back!
This seems like a good thread for this. Ill keep posting all the crappy things trump is doing in here.
Another terrible decision for Trump today:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/23/world/trump-ban-foreign-aid-abortions.html
Another awful decision and one that I strongly oppose. Looks like he has officially with policy begun targeting women and their rights.
Many great organizations doing wonderful things will be shut down but this awful decision.
Also it looks like Trump has officially the most white males in his cabinet since Reagan at 17 out of 22. Only one of those is black and only 2 are non white. This is a terrible representation and diversity of a cabinet.
Also Trump bashed on wall street and specifically Goldman Sachs (who he said
So it looks like a bunch of really white rich guys will be making a lot of decisions. Most of these people have a history of attacking and hurting the working class including Mnuchin who has a great history of aggressively foreclosing homes on widowers and people who have barely missed payments. Oh and his old company is under investigation for discriminating against people of color as well.
Another terrible decision for Trump today:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/23/world/trump-ban-foreign-aid-abortions.html
Another awful decision and one that I strongly oppose. Looks like he has officially with policy begun targeting women and their rights.
Many great organizations doing wonderful things will be shut down but this awful decision.
Also it looks like Trump has officially the most white males in his cabinet since Reagan at 17 out of 22. Only one of those is black and only 2 are non white. This is a terrible representation and diversity of a cabinet.
Also Trump bashed on wall street and specifically Goldman Sachs (who he said
) and their corruption and promised to "drain the swamp" but now has put 5 alumni of Goldman Sachs on his cabinet including Steve Mnuchin.
So it looks like a bunch of really white rich guys will be making a lot of decisions. Most of these people have a history of attacking and hurting the working class including Mnuchin who has a great history of aggressively foreclosing homes on widowers and people who have barely missed payments. Oh and his old company is under investigation for discriminating against people of color as well.
Apparently this abortion thing is renewed by every Republican president and then removed by every Democrat president for the past several decades. And guess what? Abortion rates always go up during the Republican years. If they really cared about abortion and the unborn, they would be the first to provide education, health care and contraceptives as all evidence shows that is what reduces abortion rates. Instead, they prefer to punish women for having sex. And this is why women march.
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I was also at the women's march. Sad that some of these rights need to be fought for but glad there are plenty of us willing to.
DutchJazzer
Banned
why let tax payers pay for abortion?
why use taxpayer money for abortion! giving aid i assume is in the form of taxpayers money.
you think its ok to force people into paying for stuff they deem immoral?
whether you think abortion is moral or immoral inst the question(i assume moral)
but this aid is taking money from people who deem it murder and immoral and use it to fun aborttion.
if aid is not coming from taxpayer i misunderstood the situations and i apologize!
you can't force others to be accomplices!!!!!!!!! that's WRONG!
this is not a debate on whether abortion should be legal or illegal. or if abortion is moral or immoral.
I AM DEBATING forcing people to PAY FOR IT!
DutchJazzer
Banned
the right to an abortion is not in question here. but do they have a right to force others to pay for it? that's what aid is right!
Abortions are not being paid for out of this or any taxpayer money. There are already laws against it, either here or abroad. What this does is take away financial aid for health care, contraceptives, education and other services for women in poor countries. Which means more unplanned pregnancies and more abortions.
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Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app
DutchJazzer
Banned
isn't it promoting abortion?
I assume abortion is presented as an option, but statistics show more women choose other options when they are available. And the other options are what we are taking away from the people who most need it. If you really want to prevent abortions, you don't take away contraceptives and health care. If you want to legislate morality and not actually want to prevent abortions, then you take away women's rights.
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Sent from my HTC6535LVW using JazzFanz mobile app
I don't think Trump, rhetoric aside, is going to personally be the big pusher on this issue, and he will prefer that other things get more attention. He needs political support and he yields to what he sees as the majority. Whatever is done will come out of the Congress and he will probably let it be known that he prefers these issues to be State issues, as he stated in his campaign. I think he will try to unify us if he can see any way to do that, and personal choice issues will be on a second tier to defense, border and public security, and making legal immigration more efficient and effective than coyote guided entry.
In response to Red above, I might be naïve about Trump, who knows. I don't know the man. Amazing, I see the same words, the same news, and read it entirely different. I have no great cause to promote, just that "The American Experiment" as it has been termed has never really been done yet, and I think it's our best way forward. That would be what I'd call "progress", and I view elitist or corporate imperatives in politics to be regressive. I believe Marx was a tool and that communism and socialism have been tools used by the relics of feudalist society against the good of humanity. It's a whole different sort of mindset, I'm sure.
I consider myself to be a member of the mushroom class of humanity, and I recognize when it's poop the Press is dumping on us all. Beyond that, I don't confuse American principles of governance, of representative government with real separation of powers designed to limit the potential power of cliques in government as the kind of "Populism" that spawned Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot. Or Fidel Castro for that matter.
My devoutly convicted Marxist friend, who really believed Marx's dialectic, vehemently rejected all these "State Capitalists", considering their rule the ultimate sort of corporate takeover of government. I was never able to persuade him, however, that the right to private property was essential to all other claimed human rights. As Blackstone said, a man who could not own a cow was likely to starve, making any other provisions under the law ineffective.
I consider myself to be a member of the mushroom class of humanity, and I recognize when it's poop the Press is dumping on us all. Beyond that, I don't confuse American principles of governance, of representative government with real separation of powers designed to limit the potential power of cliques in government as the kind of "Populism" that spawned Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot. Or Fidel Castro for that matter.
My devoutly convicted Marxist friend, who really believed Marx's dialectic, vehemently rejected all these "State Capitalists", considering their rule the ultimate sort of corporate takeover of government. I was never able to persuade him, however, that the right to private property was essential to all other claimed human rights. As Blackstone said, a man who could not own a cow was likely to starve, making any other provisions under the law ineffective.
fishonjazz
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Nope
Red
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it amazes me as well that such radically different impressions can exist regarding Trump, seemingly derived from listening to the same rhetoric emanating from him and his surrogates. I think rather then use the term "naive", it would perhaps be more accurate to say you trust the man far more then me, who trusts him not at all.
I perceived him to be a cynical demagogue. I see demagogues as virtually the ultimate cynics where human nature is concerned, and so, it is very difficult for me to see an extreme cynic as compassionate toward others. Family members excluded perhaps, but, as for the rest of humanity, or that portion represented by the American electorate, they exist to be wrapped around his fingers by any means needed to garner their vote. Of course, that might describe any politician, but demagogues take it to the extreme to play on the fears, anxieties, and anger present in a segment of the population.
Coupled with his extreme degree of self-involvement, he claimed yesterday without proof, for instance, that 3-5 million illegal votes went to Clinton, or else he would have won the popular vote, it's just very hard for me to see him truly concerned with much beyond his own ego gratification. So far, at least. His claim that he would have won the popular vote were it not for millions of illegal votes I guess might be described by Kellyanne Conway as an "alternative fact" perhaps. I would say he and his surrogates exist in an "alternate universe", but I don't really believe they do, as I believe there is a method to this madness and it involves discrediting the liberal universe entirely.
Evan McMullin, who ran for the presidency as a conservative candidate, put it this way: "[Trump's attacks are] intended to destroy the media's ability to hold him accountable."
I suspect he's correct, and it's very difficult for me to see this as a good thing. Other then good for Trump if he can get away with it. Since it is the liberal universe that is being damaged by the fake news phenomenon, I cannot take seriously the claims of Trump and his supporters that it is the entities most damaged by fake news that are the outlets actually creating it.
I see the Republican Party as being split in fact. Jeb Bush and the CFR-member and "progressive" or "RINO" element is out of power to some extent, but will likely be a voting block in the House and Senate. Trump has chosen to play the game in a way that mobilizes the right wing dissent to his support, but he knows he can do nothing without some Democrat support and maybe those RINOs. Some of his cabinet picks are panned by folks like Mark Levin who are also calling him a dangerous unprincipled man, a "Populist" who doesn't care about the Constitution. Levine is perhaps a member of the ds militarist element of hawks in some respects, and I find his fears about Trump's affinity for Moscow much like what you have expressed I think, though I'd have to go look and check that fact. It might not be fair.
My willingness to see humanity or human kindness in Trump comes from his apparent sadness in the last debate with Hillary when he noted that we are a deeply divided nation., and from his actual friendship and respect for, the Clintons, all campaign rhetoric aside. Jeff Sessions will have to find the votes in Congress to investigate Hillary's past affairs with foreign interests, because Trump has no heart for it.
I've actually had socialist groups whom I converse with tell me they support Trump, along the lines of believing he's not the sort who will bow to the Queen or the City of London. Putin's done business with Hillary but has since the Ukraine takeover by Soro's fascists and some aggressive NATO moves turned against her. He would have been pleased with "Anyone But Hillary". Putin says stuff about the UN describing it as a complete western fake organization with "No Law", not "New Law", saying essentially that corporate interests have hijacked it. I see Putin as a challenge in foreign policy, and as himself a very self-interested man like what you fear Trump could be.
But Trump's wife probably is not pro-Russia at all, and Trump's "Jewish connections" as in family members probably are not. What you have to expect of Trump is that he will have to find a path forward that is perceived by most Americans as consistent with our life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. I don't think he will organize big marches to counter the recent ones. I expect him to take some notice, even if he maintains his anti-media persona and discounts, rhetorically, the "news". If he gets strong public support in that from his voters, the main impact is that the Democrats and the media will have to resort to legitimate facts more people will believe, whatever they are. They should, therefore, be a little more respectful of other people and even conservative views.
Trump may have incited the reaction he's getting now, but the way to win will be to make your side credible. Might not be hard to do, but I expect Trump to see that reality and go hard after it. You'll need to try to unify the country in terms most people will accept, just like he will.
That is how our Constitutional government and division of powers works.
DutchJazzer
Banned
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-xxis7hDOE
DutchJazzer
Banned
exactly, so promoting abortion. if the result of that money is abortions one way or another, i dont wanna pay for it.
i do wanna pay for sex ed and family planning. and personal responsibility for your sexual behavior