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The costs of gay marriage

My neighbors are lesbians raising 3 boys and a girl. The kids are great, well adjusted, straight ..... they are fantastic parents and neighbors.

I think (generally speaking) that it should go:

Good hetero parents
Good homo parents
Good single parents

Yes you can find many examples of any where the kids turn out great. Just my personal oopinion on what is best. Best does not mean the others are not good.
 
So the standard for marriage is that the union must benefit society and children?

Marriage is a privilege reserved for those who intend to use the institution in the service of the state.

What is the purpose of a government? To help tie together a large group of people for the greater good of those people in multiple ways. To be unified in many ways and to be more efficient than could be done without a government.

This includes economically, socially, morally, physically and plenty of other ways. We have an economic system to support our financial needs and economics as a whole. We have a military in my opinion to defend, and although I don't like it attack. There are measures to support our societies other needs, and that includes the government getting involved in marriage and other social issues.

These things are all great and all if we as a collective group agree on things, but more and more there are great divisions as to what should and should not be in all of these areas. I'm not seeing a whole lot of "united we stand" with this country lately. I am seeing a whole lot of "divided we fall".

So, yes, as far as "marriage" is defined and a construct of our government and society then it should be something that benefits our society as a whole. Just as fiscal policy should benefit the members of society, just as our military should benefit our society.

We as a country, as a society tied and bound together should not allow policies, laws, or anything else in that will harm/deteriorate/weaken us as individuals, or our children.

It will be harder and harder to keep this country together, the greater the divide gets between people.

If you are part of this country, you cannot view marriage as not being a part of it. It is interwoven into many aspects of daily life, and is not in a bubble protected from everything else. Sure that would be great if anyone could marry anyone else without it affecting so many other people and things, but that is not the case and to attempt to view it in a bubble is pretty simplistic and incomplete.
 
What is the purpose of a government? To help tie together a large group of people for the greater good of those people in multiple ways. To be unified in many ways and to be more efficient than could be done without a government.

This includes economically, socially, morally, physically and plenty of other ways. We have an economic system to support our financial needs and economics as a whole. We have a military in my opinion to defend, and although I don't like it attack. There are measures to support our societies other needs, and that includes the government getting involved in marriage and other social issues.

These things are all great and all if we as a collective group agree on things, but more and more there are great divisions as to what should and should not be in all of these areas. I'm not seeing a whole lot of "united we stand" with this country lately. I am seeing a whole lot of "divided we fall".

So, yes, as far as "marriage" is defined and a construct of our government and society then it should be something that benefits our society as a whole. Just as fiscal policy should benefit the members of society, just as our military should benefit our society.

We as a country, as a society tied and bound together should not allow policies, laws, or anything else in that will harm/deteriorate/weaken us as individuals, or our children.

It will be harder and harder to keep this country together, the greater the divide gets between people.

If you are part of this country, you cannot view marriage as not being a part of it. It is interwoven into many aspects of daily life, and is not in a bubble protected from everything else. Sure that would be great if anyone could marry anyone else without it affecting so many other people and things, but that is not the case and to attempt to view it in a bubble is pretty simplistic and incomplete.

Sadly I am seeing this start to become hard divisions. I'm not talking mocking those with a differing opinion but a very hard "us v. them" stance being taken by more and more at an alarming rate.
 
The way I see it, society benefits by following policies that encourage stable households - whether or not children are involved.

Personally, I have no problem with allowing two adults who share a home (with or without children in that home) and who enter into some sort of legal commitment to one another (marriage, civil union or whatever its final designation) to have a legal status that would allow them tax benefits, insurance benefits and other benefits that are considered to be part of a traditional "marriage" relationship.

I just don't see that extending the same benefits to same-sex couples in a committed relationship does any harm to society.

I find it interesting that the "study" mentioned in Scat's post indicates that a major cause of the problems noted in the last few paragraphs of the article is household instability. The researchers specifically targeted a segment where "my colleagues and I randomly screened over 15,000 Americans aged 18-39 and asked them if their biological mother or father ever had a romantic relationship with a member of the same sex" and from those who responded positively, they draw specific conclusions. The report gives no indication of how many of those 15,000 answered YES. It also would seem to have a bias towards those who were raised in an atmosphere of greater instability.

...the children of women who’ve had same-sex relationships fare quite differently than those in stable, biologically-intact mom-and-pop families...


It does go on though to say this:

To improve upon the science and to test the theory of “no differences,” the NFSS collected data from a large, random cross-section of American young adults—apart from the census, the largest population-based dataset prepared to answer research questions about households in which mothers or fathers have had same-sex relationships—and asked them questions about their life both now and while they were growing up. When simply and briefly asked if their mother and/or father had been in a same-sex romantic relationship, 175 said it was true of their mothers and 73 said the same about their fathers—numbers far larger than has typified studies in this area.

So out of a number even bigger than their original 15,000 - they found about 250 who had a biological parent who at some point had been involved in a same-sex relationship. Not really a big sample size at all.


And a bigger question for those researchers - they are to some degree comparing apples to oranges, since same-sex relationships have been devalued to such a great degree, and as even the author of the article states:

Let me be clear: I’m not claiming that sexual orientation is at fault here, or that I know about kids who are presently being raised by gay or lesbian parents. Their parents may be forging more stable relationships in an era that is more accepting and supportive of gay and lesbian couples. But that is not the case among the previous generation...


I THINK ONE PRIMARY DIFFERENCE between those who favor greater recognition of same-sex relationships vs. those who oppose it are that those who oppose it somehow think that if the laws remain repressive and/or favor "traditional" male-female unions, the same-sex relationships will disappear, or at least go back into the closet, and that society would somehow be better if that happens.
Those who favor a gender-neutral approach with equal treatment for both traditional and same-sex relationships disagree with the notion that same-sex relationships will just disappear and feel that society is better served if all people have equal opportunity to form stable household units.
 
Just saw this opinion piece, https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/20/opinion/george-gay-marriage?iref=obinsite. The article is in large part actually about polygamy, but these quotes on the gay marriage issue echo some of what I was saying in my earlier post in this thread:

The attractive civil rights rhetoric of "marriage equality" masks a profound error about what marriage is. Of course, if marriage were simply about recognizing bonds of affection or romance, then two men or two women could form a marriage just as a man and woman can.
...
But marriage is far more than your emotional bond with "your Number One person," to quote same-sex marriage proponent John Corvino.
...
All human beings are equal in dignity and should be equal before the law. But equality only forbids arbitrary distinctions. And there is nothing arbitrary about maximizing the chances that children will know the love of their biological parents in a committed and exclusive bond. A strong marriage culture serves children, families and society by encouraging the ideal of giving kids both a mom and a dad.
 
As I see it, extending marriage to a group of people who don't have as much of a cultural prerogative to get married should strengthen the institution of marriage, not weaken it.
 
So the standard for marriage is that the union must benefit society and children?

Marriage is a privilege reserved for those who intend to use the institution in the service of the state.

Obviously, your disconnect here is the fact that progressives, by the postulates of their religion, must justify everything as the generous gift of true understanding to the lesser humans who must be governed by their superior views.

Of course this whole discussion is exactly based on what institutions can best be used in the service of the state, and on how the lesser humans must be brought into conformance with the True Religion of the Man-gods destined to rule the world.
 
As I see it, extending marriage to a group of people who don't have as much of a cultural prerogative to get married should strengthen the institution of marriage, not weaken it.

As you see it, you can just solve everything by changing the meanings of words. Right.
 
As you see it, you can just solve everything by changing the meanings of words. Right.

Are you talking about the meaning of the word marriage? That's a definition it seems is hard to pin down depending on when and where you ask.
 
Just saw this opinion piece, https://www.cnn.com/2013/03/20/opinion/george-gay-marriage?iref=obinsite. The article is in large part actually about polygamy, but these quotes on the gay marriage issue echo some of what I was saying in my earlier post in this thread:

so what would you think of amending the tax code such that the benefit of being "married" and filing jointly only extends to those with dependent children in the home - if a couple is "pre-kids" or "post-kids" they would not be eligible for the tax benefits of filing a joint return. If the basic issue for you is what results from the sex act, then make the rules apply after the results have been achieved, and not make the benefit automatic just because...

To me, the paramount issue is trying to achieve a level of fairness in the tax code with respect to same-sex and opposite sex couples. I just don't think a woman who had a deep and long-lasting relationship with another woman rather than a man should be punished with having to pay an additional $250,000 estate tax.
 
so what would you think of amending the tax code such that the benefit of being "married" and filing jointly only extends to those with dependent children in the home - if a couple is "pre-kids" or "post-kids" they would not be eligible for the tax benefits of filing a joint return. If the basic issue for you is what results from the sex act, then make the rules apply after the results have been achieved, and not make the benefit automatic just because...

To me, the paramount issue is trying to achieve a level of fairness in the tax code with respect to same-sex and opposite sex couples. I just don't think a woman who had a deep and long-lasting relationship with another woman rather than a man should be punished with having to pay an additional $250,000 estate tax.

I'd eliminate the death tax in a heartbeat. People pay taxes on income, and property taxes all their lives, and there are plenty of tax dodges the very wealthy use to escape death taxes. Most of the death taxes that are collected come from farmers and other folks who just don't think they can afford a CPA and a lawyer.

the principal benefits of the death tax go to corporate ag cartels and real estate salesmen who get a percent of everything that has to be sold to pay Uncle Sam.

However, society including creditors and government have a huge benefit in having married couples "hook up" financially. A stay-at-home mom gives nothing to "society" financially, but produces future taxpayers. With no breadwinner in the picture, she would be a welfare mom, at a huge cost to society.

the tax break for married couples getting legally hitched is a good deal for working single taxpayers, because otherwise their taxes would go up much more than the married couples' taxes go down.
 
Are you talking about the meaning of the word marriage? That's a definition it seems is hard to pin down depending on when and where you ask.

Well, Webster, all words are like that to some extent. Until dictionaries were invented and lawyers arose from the evolutionary muck.

Let's just say the Roman Centurions, who were paired as lovers by their commanders as a method of strengthening their military cohesiveness sometimes, didn't use the term "marriage" as most of society will understand it. It's principal meaning has not varied much across the ages. . . . and means a joining of adult male and female for general life purposes, including having and raising children and many other things that are essential to their general welfare individually and collectively.

As I would take it, same-sex pairings are about as beneficial to humanity, society, and individuals as slavery ever was. Well, sometimes I tell my wife I'm not her slave, and she likewise may say she's not my slave, but at least in heterosexual marriage there is an obvious basis for consider the other partner as more than just an extra pair of hands. . . .. as someone who through differences in characteristics and nature deserves respect for being something other than what you are.
 
so what would you think of amending the tax code such that the benefit of being "married" and filing jointly only extends to those with dependent children in the home - if a couple is "pre-kids" or "post-kids" they would not be eligible for the tax benefits of filing a joint return. If the basic issue for you is what results from the sex act, then make the rules apply after the results have been achieved, and not make the benefit automatic just because...

To me, the paramount issue is trying to achieve a level of fairness in the tax code with respect to same-sex and opposite sex couples. I just don't think a woman who had a deep and long-lasting relationship with another woman rather than a man should be punished with having to pay an additional $250,000 estate tax.


I don't oppose amending the tax code to extend joint-filing benefits to both marriages and civil unions. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. However, I doubt the U.S. Supreme Court would be invoked just to resolve a simple proposed change to the U.S. tax code. I'm pretty sure tax status isn't what's driving the Prop 8 / No Prop 8 debate.

Again, I think this is about whether the state will make a statement to explicitly sanction same-sex couples on par with traditional married couples. It's an equal-status, equal-esteem debate.
 
As a further thought about tax policy, I wish to go on record for supporting a complete abolition of income tax, period. Okay. Now we're "fair". And personal relations are nobody's business. Period.
 
As a further thought about tax policy, I wish to go on record for supporting a complete abolition of income tax, period. Okay. Now we're "fair". And personal relations are nobody's business. Period.

Yeah, if only.
 
I don't oppose amending the tax code to extend joint-filing benefits to both marriages and civil unions. I don't think anyone would have a problem with that. However, I doubt the U.S. Supreme Court would be invoked just to resolve a simple proposed change to the U.S. tax code. I'm pretty sure tax status isn't what's driving the Prop 8 / No Prop 8 debate.

Again, I think this is about whether the state will make a statement to explicitly sanction same-sex couples on par with traditional married couples. It's an equal-status, equal-esteem debate.

I honestly don't know that much about the issues, but I believe there are two separate cases before the Supreme Court. One involves California's Prop 8 - but it has nothing to do with the tax code. The other case has something to do with contesting the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) that was signed into law about 20 years ago, and does specifically impact the US Federal tax code as it defines marriage as between a "man and a woman" and thus denies certain benefits to couples of the same sex (ie, they're not considered a "couple" in terms of estate taxes, and they cannot file a joint federal tax return)
 
The problems I see are how does an institution have to recognize them. I see lawsuits against any privat entity that does not play ball with a gay marriage once legal. That I have a problem with.

For example, some private health foundation places families of critically injured people into temp homes while their loved ones are being treated. A gay man is injured and his husband applies with that foundation and they deny him becuase they do not agree with gay marriage. The man sues them and wins and the foundation is forced to do business with him. That is something I do not agree with. They are a private organizationa nd should be able to deny anyone they want.

If the organization in question accepts no government funding/licensing/etc. and do not advertise themselves as open to the public, their free speech rights protect them in such suit.
 
The only problem I can see arising if same sex marriage is allowed would be the government forcing religions to accept or even participate in them. That would not be cool.

Loving vs. Virginia was in 1967. In that time, not one single church/religion has been forced by the government to accept or participate in inter-racial marriage. Your fear is based on a counter-factual. It can't and won't happen.
 
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