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The Non-Jazz NBA Thread in the Jazz Section

Saint Cy of JFC said:
IF we were at a point in team building where we had no other options and we are faced with this kind of big swing move, sure.

But we arent even sniffing that point of the building phase so I dont see the upside being worth the opportunity cost of other, more likely to be better moves.
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And I get that... so I am good passing on Collins. Sometimes the best buy low opportunities may not be perfect fits though... so you add some talent and figure it out.

With Collins I'd be comfortable letting the offer come to me versus pushing it.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I'd say his "value" is still slightly positive. If we had a need and offered neutral value then I'd feel fine without a pick. I think the trade I threw out was like KO/Vando/Gay for JC is what I would feel okay with. I will trust the front office on fit and such.
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I'd rather just move Vando for a first round pick and whatever we can get out of KO, even if it means taking a back a mildly short term contract, than taking on a risk like Collins.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
I'd rather just move Vando for a first round pick and whatever we can get out of KO, even if it means taking a back a mildly short term contract, than taking on a risk like Collins.
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If you can get a real first for Vando I'd rather do that too. I don't think KO gets anything really good.

I'd rather go that route too... but I'd understand a Collins trade at a good price. The contract and risk are the reasons the price is relatively cheap... i think they have had him on the market a while because they wanted a better return than we are outlining here... the market has spoken and they may settle for something lower now.

John is a guy I could see working if he was more of a 3 but he's a hybrid 4/5. Like I tried to think of guys that could give the good stuff I'd want from Collins with a cheaper price... but there aren't a ton of candidates. Then I've watched some of them (PJ Washington specifically) and just come away completely unimpressed.

The good news for us is I don't see us doing a John Collins deal unless its pretty one sided. I think the smart move is not to limit the flexibility at this point.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Nah, you can definitely get a first out of him, especially if you are willing to take back a mildly bad contract. His contract is excellent for contenders who want to add cheap talent that wont raise their LT payments.
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I think it would be like a Celtics first or one that has some icky protections... I heard somewhere that the price the Jazz set on Vando was slightly more than a first... take that for what its worth. I think there would be a first out there but it wouldn't be a super juicy one.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I think it would be like a Celtics first or one that has some icky protections... I heard somewhere that the price the Jazz set on Vando was slightly more than a first... take that for what its worth. I think there would be a first out there but it wouldn't be a super juicy one.
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Still think as a board we underrate JV. Having a career year at 23

I would actually love to keep him, but I think he walks in free agency for a bigger role when it becomes obvious Walker is the better player and he/Walker cant share the court together, so Id rather just trade him when his value is high.
 
We know for a fact that Phoenix offered a heavily protected 2023 1st for Vando which we declined.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Nah, you can definitely get a first out of him, especially if you are willing to take back a mildly bad contract. His contract is excellent for contenders who want to add cheap talent that wont raise their LT payments.
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Why would a contender part with a first for a non-shooting "energy" guy whose defense is extremely suspect? I'm sure Vando is a great dude, but that player type can easily be picked up off the trash heap.

You don't win in the playoffs with energy guys with no ball skills. The game slows down in the half court, matchups are analyzed under a microscope and all flaws are mercilessly exploited. Vando has SF size but can't stay with anyone on the perimeter or shoot. That's.... not ideal.

Vando often looked decent on the Wolves when he had four scorers around him, but they won despite him, not because of him.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Still think as a board we underrate JV. Having a career year at 23

I would actually love to keep him, but I think he walks in free agency for a bigger role when it becomes obvious Walker is the better player and he/Walker cant share the court together, so Id rather just trade him when his value is high.
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Yeah I don't know. The individual defense is not nearly as good as I hoped but he has surprised with his shot and his playmaking (sometimes).

I think he is extension eligible this offseason so we can offer something in the 3 years 12M per year if we want to keep him and avoid FA.
 
Tremendous Upside said:
Why would a contender part with a first for a non-shooting "energy" guy whose defense is extremely suspect? I'm sure Vando is a great dude, but that player type can easily be picked up off the trash heap.

You don't win in the playoffs with energy guys with no ball skills. The game slows down in the half court, matchups are analyzed under a microscope and all flaws are mercilessly exploited. Vando has SF size but can't stay with anyone on the perimeter or shoot. That's.... not ideal.

Vando often looked decent on the Wolves when he had four scorers around him, but they won despite him, not because of him.
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His individual defense isn't amazing but he is a high steal guy... overall he is a good defender. The shooting is promising. He's a cheap reliable rotation player that offers some variety to a front court. Are there good players on the trash heap... sure... not nearly as easy to find the good ones as you make it.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
His individual defense isn't amazing but he is a high steal guy... overall he is a good defender. The shooting is promising. He's a cheap reliable rotation player that offers some variety to a front court. Are there good players on the trash heap... sure... not nearly as easy to find the good ones as you make it.
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Clearly he isnt a "guard the first option guy" but his defensive numbers are skewed negatively here because he mostly plays with Lauri/KO front courts. Lauri has been a better than expected defender, but he isnt anything special on that end and KO, while being a very talented IQ team defender, is probably one of the least physically talented defensive players in the NBA. Also plays a lot next to Conley/Clarkson, two mediocre perimeter defenders.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Clearly he isnt a "guard the first option guy" but his defensive numbers are skewed negatively here because he mostly plays with Lauri/KO front courts. Lauri has been a better than expected defender, but he isnt anything special on that end and KO, while being a very talented IQ team defender, is probably one of the least physically talented defensive players in the NBA. Also plays a lot next to Conley/Clarkson, two mediocre perimeter defenders.
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I actually think Lauri can be kinda special. There was some rim protection numbers on him that were pretty awesome and he moves his feet so well for a guy his size. Like he isn't the type that you build the defense around but can be a big asset defensively.

I just think to have a credible defense you either need 2-3 world class perimeter defenders or great rim protection.. so our best option currently is Kessler... the Vando, KO, Lauri alignment is cool but is kinda gimmicky. I'd rather move to Kessler as the starter with Lauri and find a 3 and D option... keep one of KO/Vando to throw in the mix.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Clearly he isnt a "guard the first option guy" but his defensive numbers are skewed negatively here because he mostly plays with Lauri/KO front courts. Lauri has been a better than expected defender, but he isnt anything special on that end and KO, while being a very talented IQ team defender, is probably one of the least physically talented defensive players in the NBA. Also plays a lot next to Conley/Clarkson, two mediocre perimeter defenders.
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That's quite a take. While nobody's claiming Lauri and KO are great 1-on-1 defenders, they both regularly have to guard true bigs because Kessler is an inexperienced rookie and only plays 18mpg. Dok is mostly glued to the bench. That's far from ideal, as neither Lauri or Olynyk is a center.

Vando, however, pretty much gets to guard his own position, facing guys his size. Yet he constantly falls asleep, finds himself way out of position and gets beat on the perimeter. His D is one of the clear disappointments of the season.

On the whole, our defense sucks. Vando is part of that.
 
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