The Official Enes Kanter can be a stretch 4 thread.

[Handlogten's Heros]

He shoots just under 40% on 2s outside the paint over the last 2 years... Not horrible but doesn't knock your socks of either. We can expect him to be in between 30 and 35% ish is my guess. Also don't post shooting in an open gym as evidence of a great shot. I'm a rec ball player and can shoot about 75% on threes in an open gym if I'm allowed to shoot one after another.

I'm not saying he can't hit the three... I just think we severely overstate what he can do based on the evidence so far.

 

[QuinSnydersHair]

He shoots just under 40% on 2s outside the paint over the last 2 years... Not horrible but doesn't knock your socks of either. We can expect him to be in between 30 and 35% ish is my guess. Also don't post shooting in an open gym as evidence of a great shot. I'm a rec ball player and can shoot about 75% on threes in an open gym if I'm allowed to shoot one after another.

I'm not saying he can't hit the three... I just think we severely overstate what he can do based on the evidence so far.

How does that "just under 40%" compare to say Chris Bosh, Kevin Love and Ryan Anderson? Bigs who can stretch the floor. I'm genuinely curious and would love if you could post the data.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

but as long as he can hit it well enough so his man can't sag off him, isn't that a key part of being a stretch four? bringing a man out of the paint?

I think his point is the delivery is so slow that you will be able to sag off him and still recover... Not like he's going to blow by you on a drive.

 

[mellow]

[video=youtube_share;Dq7hAXocyjk]https://youtu.be/Dq7hAXocyjk

Lindsey was doing his job.

 

[jope]

don't post shooting in an open gym as evidence of a great shot. I'm a rec ball player and can shoot about 75% on threes in an open gym if I'm allowed to shoot one after another.

I'm not saying he can't hit the three... I just think we severely overstate what he can do based on the evidence so far.

What else are we supposed to post?

He has shot 3 (three) 3pt shots in his NBA career, (all of which were probably going against the coaches orders, or as the clock was expiring)

Please tell me what in-game footage we should be posting.

He shoots just under 40% on 2s outside the paint over the last 2 years... We can expect him to be in between 30 and 35% ish is my guess.

Even if midrange% translates to 3pt% (which im not quite convinced it does), 35% from 3 is the same as shooting 52.5% from 2. If he can shoot 35% from 3 you call that a big victory, as it is plenty efficient AND spreads the floor out.

 

[MVP]

[video=youtube_share;Dq7hAXocyjk]https://youtu.be/Dq7hAXocyjk

Lindsey was doing his job.

I don't know why but his attitude here sucks. So lackadaisical. Have you ever seen Malone/Stockton doing anything on the court with such attitude?

 

[jope]

I don't know why but his attitude here sucks. So lackadaisical. Have you ever seen Malone/Stockton doing anything on the court with such attitude?

seems to me like someone challenged him to make shots 1-handed without jumping or something along those lines. he keeps looking over at someone, and not really shooting his typical jumper

 

[QuinSnydersHair]

How does that "just under 40%" compare to say Chris Bosh, Kevin Love and Ryan Anderson? Bigs who can stretch the floor. I'm genuinely curious and would love if you could post the data.

I'm responding to my own post but here are the shot charts to three bigs who can stretch the floor and then Kanter. The images are small but should enlarge when clicked.


Bosh


Anderson


Love


Kanter

 

[addictionary]

but as long as he can hit it well enough so his man can't sag off him, isn't that a key part of being a stretch four? bringing a man out of the paint?

Absolutely. But I would really like, he could use his height advantage and turn it into a mismatch against the perimeter defenders to score from the three point line.

 

[addictionary]

Lindsey was doing his job.

What was that 2/30 ? He was just screwing around in a random moment before the game probably fun trash talking with some dude or chick at the back about one handed 3 pointer. I don't think he is concentrated to make those shots too much. It's just like spinning a pen in your hand when thinking at an exam, work, or listening to somebody, your hand automatically gets to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScNDVTMkQaY

 

[Jeffrey32]

Kanter is a banger inside who can occasionally spread the floor. I would call him a stretch 4 and don't think he should be as it would diminish his ability to play inside.


Sent from the JazzFanz app

 

[countonbuckets]

This Has Got To Be The Dumbest Idea I Have Heard All Year Just In Regards To Basketball Because After My Girlfriend's Daughter Moved Back In Since Graduating College I Have Heard Her And Her Friends Chatting In The Living Room And They Take The Cake For Dumbest Ideas I Have Heard All Year. Kanter Is A Bulldozer With Skill And Just A Freaking Kid Man. He Will Learn To Get Better. He Has Showed His Improvement Each Season From Whenever I Catch A Game. Even Though The Kid Has Nice Touch And Can Shoot Doesn't Mean You Take Someone That Strong Around The Basket Away From It Permanently. I Keep Reading And Hearing About Players Being A Stretch Four And Just Laugh At The Progressive Political Correctness Crowd Because If I Take It To Seriously I Will Get Depressed And Probably Fill That Emptyness And Hopelessness For Life By Gambling Again Or Something. But Their Winning There Mission And George Carlin Must Be Rolling Over In His Grave. Power Forwards Who Played Away From The Paint Are Called Soft In My Book Not A Stretch Four. Kanter Isn't Soft He Is Tough And I Bet The New Coach Would Spit On The Idea Of Telling Kanter "Hey Even Though You Kick The **** Out Of Grown Men And 10 Year Vets In The Post We Want You To Just Screen And Shoot From The Perimeter."

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

What else are we supposed to post?

He has shot 3 (three) 3pt shots in his NBA career, (all of which were probably going against the coaches orders, or as the clock was expiring)

Please tell me what in-game footage we should be posting.





Even if midrange% translates to 3pt% (which im not quite convinced it does), 35% from 3 is the same as shooting 52.5% from 2. If he can shoot 35% from 3 you call that a big victory, as it is plenty efficient AND spreads the floor out.

Generally guys will shoot a lower percentage the further they move out... from my limited research you can expect at least a 5% dip. I know there is no in-game footage... just saying shoot arounds are no indicative of in game performance.

I'm not in love with Kanter's shooting motion and I don't think he'll be able to stretch it out effectively. Look at Bosh... he is the best mid range shooting big man and he is just an okay 3-point shooter.

I just think his shooting ability is completely overstated... He's okay. And sure DL said he can make him... his goal is to raise the value of all of his players (until contract time). If he was asked the question and said "he's really an average shooter from 18ish feet so I don't really think we want him moving it back" I don't think that helps his cause.

 

[jope]

Generally guys will shoot a lower percentage the further they move out... from my limited research you can expect at least a 5% dip. I know there is no in-game footage... just saying shoot arounds are no indicative of in game performance.

I'm not in love with Kanter's shooting motion and I don't think he'll be able to stretch it out effectively. Look at Bosh... he is the best mid range shooting big man and he is just an okay 3-point shooter.

I just think his shooting ability is completely overstated... He's okay. And sure DL said he can make him... his goal is to raise the value of all of his players (until contract time). If he was asked the question and said "he's really an average shooter from 18ish feet so I don't really think we want him moving it back" I don't think that helps his cause.

while i agree (and worry) about his shooting form and speed, there are cases of players shooting better from 3 than from midrange.

just off the top of my head, aaron gordon ( i know, known bad shooter, but still his percentages follow)

non paint 2PA’s 44/160 = 27.5%
3PA's = 16/45 = 35.6%

Mid-season shot chart (only one i could find) of Noah Vonleh is more of the same

non paint 2PA’s 30/96 = 31.2%
3PA's = 14/21 = 66.6%

Not saying this is necessarily the norm, but if a player practices 3pt shooting more than midrange, or gets to take more set shots from 3, or doesnt have to take as many shots off the bounce (which is often seen in midrange) etc etc, can all contribute to unseen variables which could negate the increased distance.


That being said, I worry about his slow mechanics. If we can get an offense in place that finds enes in positions where his man has left him to help. Then yes, i think he will do just fine. I think his success hinges more on the offense's ability to free him, than it does on whether he can make the shot or not. I guess i wouldn't be as worried if i knew he could pass (which he cant).

(also, for the record, even from the drafting of enes, i never saw him as a "good" or "great" shooter. But i do see him as being able to hit, even from 3, when open, which would do wonders for our spacing)

 

[Sexual Favors]

Mid range and 3 pt shot are different. People who believe that a mid range shot must be perfect for him to extend to a 3 are ridiculous. A lot of players don't even have a mid range shot because of how it is frowned upon w/ analytics, and so it is something that doesn't get developed. Not saying this is the case w/ Enes, but not saying it isn't. His mid range isn't bad anyways.

I don't know what Kanter's 3pt % will be, but those believing he needs to shoot it at 35% or whatever are misinformed. He just needs to prove that he can shoot it above 25%, and he'll be drawing a big out, or having a perimeter guy rotating to hm, and that's what the value is. The points he scores from it will be great, but it's the wy it will disrupt the defense that will really matter.

The benefits of having Kanter do this, as opposed to having Marvin do this, lies in the matchup the opposing team puts out on the floor. When Marvin was a stretch 4, the other team could just pur out their own stretch 4, which was really a 3, and then we were playing small ball. Or if they didn't have an extra 3 or small 4 to stick out there, they ran with their normal 4, and Marvin would score from the outside, while the opposing 4 took all of the rebounds and got whatever he wanted in the paint. With Kanter, if the team decided to put their traditional 4 on him, he would be draggin him out to the perimeter, openng up the dloor for others, or getting wide open 3 pters because they were too slow to gaurd hm. If they put a stretch 4, or a 3 on him, he'd just post them up.

In short, Kanter stretching the floor, even at a somewhat bad % still has the potential to cause serious mismatches and headaches for the opposing team.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

while i agree (and worry) about his shooting form and speed, there are cases of players shooting better from 3 than from midrange.

just off the top of my head, aaron gordon ( i know, known bad shooter, but still his percentages follow)

non paint 2PA’s 44/160 = 27.5%
3PA's = 16/45 = 35.6%

Mid-season shot chart (only one i could find) of Noah Vonleh is more of the same

non paint 2PA’s 30/96 = 31.2%
3PA's = 14/21 = 66.6%

Not saying this is necessarily the norm, but if a player practices 3pt shooting more than midrange, or gets to take more set shots from 3, or doesnt have to take as many shots off the bounce (which is often seen in midrange) etc etc, can all contribute to unseen variables which could negate the increased distance.


That being said, I worry about his slow mechanics. If we can get an offense in place that finds enes in positions where his man has left him to help. Then yes, i think he will do just fine. I think his success hinges more on the offense's ability to free him, than it does on whether he can make the shot or not. I guess i wouldn't be as worried if i knew he could pass (which he cant).

(also, for the record, even from the drafting of enes, i never saw him as a "good" or "great" shooter. But i do see him as being able to hit, even from 3, when open, which would do wonders for our spacing)

I think we are basically at the same place... There are some examples of guys that shoot better on the 3s. Personally I never shoot from 8-15 feet because it is such a tough touch shot. Millsap is actually a good example of this as he shoots 33.6% on non-paint twos and 36% on 3s, but that makes a little sense to me because of the way he shoots. This isn't the norm though.

Kanter doesn't get much lift and shoots it kind of from his head (if that makes sense). I think he'd better be served getting the 15 footer to 45% and I could see him pump faking from 15 feet and taking one dribble (anything more than that is trouble) and going up to score.

My biggest issues with Kanter are not his shooting... its his passing and defense. Of the two I think the defense will be easier to fix because I think he does try. Passing is the hardest thing to do on a basketball court. There is no room, you have to think fast, and there are a lot of moving parts. If Kanter had Gasol's passing ability I wouldn't worry about him and Favors not being able to spread the floor.

 

[Stifle Tower]

^^
Good point, SF. Long two's are the worst shot in basketball. Kanter's mid-range should extend to about 15-ft., 18 at the most. Beyond that, you should be looking to take a 3.
And I agree re: matchups. Kanter already has a decent inside game, courtesy of working with Big Al on the up-an-under's. If he can extend his range, he'll be able to score from the outside against bigger PF's. And smaller PF's will get killed inside by his physicality. The key is how Kanter does defensively.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

There's just so many ifs with Kanter for me to get excited by him. If he's a good 3-point shooter... if he can play defense... if he can figure out how to pass.

I also think we underestimate how big the passing thing is... the ball just sticks to him and it is so disruptive to the offense.

 

[Sexual Favors]

My biggest issues with Kanter are not his shooting... its his passing and defense. Of the two I think the defense will be easier to fix because I think he does try. Passing is the hardest thing to do on a basketball court. There is no room, you have to think fast, and there are a lot of moving parts. If Kanter had Gasol's passing ability I wouldn't worry about him and Favors not being able to spread the floor.

I agree that his passing and defense need work if he is going to be succesful with Favors, or just successful in general. Thankfully, Kanter just turned 22, and his passing HAS gotten better each year. Since passing is a team concept, and Kanter hasn't had the luxury of playing with teams as often as other prospects, I don't think we should be writing him off because he started out as a bad passer, but rather we should monitor how the skill is developing.

Kanter has increased is AST% every year that he has been in the league.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kanteen01.html

He started out at 1.4 AST%, which was pitifully low, but has since worked that up to 6.4%.

I think looking at Marc Gasol's stats compared to Kanter's is unfair, because Gasol was 24 when he entered the league, is a great defender, had been coached extensively, and had a brother to hone his game with (Kareem Kanter isn't NBA caliber). I think his counterpart of Randolph is still unfair, but more appropriate.

Randolph's AST% has bounced up and down throughout his career, but I think it is worth noting that at 21 (first season above 1k minutes), his AST% was 5.7%. Kanter played above 1k minutes at 20, and his AST% was 5.0. At 21, Kanter upped his AST% to 6.4. Randolph took a big jump the following year, and now his AST% for his career hovers at 10.3%. I think Kanter can easily hit the 10.3% mark once he is developed and more confident in his game.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/randoza01.html


Kanter can be our Randolph, but w/ a 3 ball. Favors needs to up his D and passing if he is going to be our Gasol. Right now his AST% is at 7.3. Gasol's career AST% is 13.7%.

Gasol entered the league at 24, and posted a 9.7 AST% his first year. Favors is 22. I still believe in the Favors and Kanter duo very much. Randolph didn't make the all star team, or team up w/ Gasol until he was 28. Gasol didn't enter the league until he was 24. Favors is 22, and Kanter just turned 22 as well. Big men develop slower, so sit back and be patient.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolma01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/favorde01.html

 

[infection]

I don't know why but his attitude here sucks. So lackadaisical. Have you ever seen Malone/Stockton doing anything on the court with such attitude?

You mean like Malone warming up at the all star game shooting half court shots?