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The Utah Jazz and Tanking

chawx

chawx

Active Member
Recently, HoopIdea has been trying to address how to fix two major issues in the NBA. One is flopping, offensive and defensive, and the other is tanking to gain lottery picks/better draft order. I know we all hate flopping, but I'll leave that discussion alone for now, what I want to talk to you guys about is tanking.

Now, a vocal few of you have stayed strong in your view point that the Jazz should lose more games to keep/get a better draft pick. This group, since the start of the season, has wanted (even hoped) for the Jazz to lose games to improve their chances at getting the "next superstar" in this upcoming draft. Even now, while this team is surging and the youngs and vets are starting to get a feel for each other and playing inspired basketball, they still can't enjoy a victory because their mind is so set on, "If we just tank this year, or tank the next couple years, we'll get that Durant-like guy that will lead us to a championship".

Well, I've been reading a few of these articles by HoopIdea and wanted to pass them along to see how you guys all felt about it.

First off, about the "OKC model" or "Supersonic model" however you want to call it: https://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/39546/the-oklahoma-city-unicorns
...What I’m suggesting is that the current lottery system does not help struggling teams nearly as much as one might think. It’s a collection of life preservers thrown a struggling group of franchises, but only one in four actually float. Thrashing about in the deep blue sea of futility to get that kind of odds of finding a great player hardly seems worth it.
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<- There are some great points here about how this tactic is an extremely rare case study and not something every team should/could aspire to complete.

Second: https://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/39318/tanking-is-the-tip-of-the-iceberg
Without the prospect of high picks, however, surely owners around the league would replace incompetent GMs with executives who knew about building culture, developing players, identifying talent, negotiating good value from contracts and trades and the like. Expecting any team to contend without that kind of management is asking too much of luck. Winning in the NBA is like winning in anything. A well executed long-term strategy creates the most predictable success, even in a game with trump cards. If you're a fan of a team that makes several bad decisions a year, you probably can't luck into players good enough to overcome the the missteps of a chronically underperforming front office.
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<- This is an overall assessment of tanking in general and paints a pretty bleak picture for those teams trying to employ this tactic.

Finally, a fix, offered by ex-coach (and coach that some have mentioned for here in Utah) Jeff Van Gundy: https://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/39583/fix-tanking-jeff-van-gundy
A few weeks ago, Jeff Van Gundy addressed tanking on TrueHoop TV, and as usual he didn't mince words, saying: "The whole idea of getting bad, as bad as you can, to get good, basically throwing away seasons, throwing games, not trying your best to win ... should have no place in the draft."
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<- I like his thoughts on this and personally would like to see this strategy employed in the NBA. Imagine if those Stockton and Malone teams got a top 5 pick just once or twice when all they did was win. History would have played out much differently.

I know this a HUGE opening to a thread, but if you're in the TL;DR club...here you go:

What it boils down to is this: Should the NBA fix the current problem of fan bases, teams, and GMs openly hoping to suck, just for the chance at getting a top 5 or top 10 pick in the draft?
 
Oops, my bad.

I just realized we're talking about the OKC model in a different thread. I guess you can kill this or merge it into the current thread that's going on now.
 
I like your thread better. I want a solution to tanking. I think tanking is beyond unethical, bad for the game, bad for fans. The fact that it is talked about so openly disgusts me and makes me not want to watch any NBA ball.

To me it's like saying "If I do my sister, then my mom, then let my dirty uncle have his way with me I might get invited to thanksgiving at my 3rd cousins house...and she's hot, so that's my best chance to hit that."

Just leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
 
Gameface said:
I like your thread better. I want a solution to tanking. I think tanking is beyond unethical, bad for the game, bad for fans. The fact that it is talked about so openly disgusts me and makes me not want to watch any NBA ball.

To me it's like saying "If I do my sister, then my mom, then let my dirty uncle have his way with me I might get invited to thanksgiving at my 3rd cousins house...and she's hot, so that's my best chance to hit that."

Just leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
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I don't follow you. I don't see how those things connect, but you can ignore me because I am not incest.
 
What pick was Favors again?

What picks were Durant, Lebron,Wade, CP3, Dwill, Rose, Dwight Howard, Duncan, and many others?

Oh that's right, they were really high picks. How did those teams get those picks? Oh that's right, they had to suck.

How many championships has the Utah model won? Oh that's right. Zero. I know you aren't guaranteed a championship with a top guy but you are guaranteed not to win one without one or two of them.

You clowns have been drinking too much Koolaid from the Jazz front office. Being mediocre all the time isn't a good thing. They are just selling you tickets of a small amount of hope.

No one here in there right mind would suggest we try to suck all the time. Right now is just the right time to do it. Derrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. We have a golden opportunity right now to create an OKC model. But that doesn't mean that should be the exact model every time. Attempting to suck every year until we found the guy would probably prove to be futile. But our situation is much different right now. We have a nice start going and wouldn't hurt to add a couple more lottery picks for some insurance. This opportunity is going to come around again.
 
What pick was Favors again?

What picks were Durant, Lebron,Wade, CP3, Dwill, Rose, Dwight Howard, Duncan, and many others?

Oh that's right, they were really high picks. How did those teams get those picks? Oh that's right, they had to suck.

How many championships has the Utah model won? Oh that's right. Zero. I know you aren't guaranteed a championship with a top guy but you are guaranteed not to win one without one or two of them.

You clowns have been drinking too much Koolaid from the Jazz front office. Being mediocre all the time isn't a good thing. They are just selling you tickets of a small amount of hope.

No one here in there right mind would suggest we try to suck all the time. Right now is just the right time to do it. Derrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. We have a golden opportunity right now to create an OKC model. But that doesn't mean that should be the exact model every time. Attempting to suck every year until we found the guy would probably prove to be futile. But our situation is much different right now. We have a nice start going and wouldn't hurt to add a couple more lottery picks for some insurance. This opportunity is going to come around again.
 
Gameface said:
I like your thread better. I want a solution to tanking. I think tanking is beyond unethical, bad for the game, bad for fans. The fact that it is talked about so openly disgusts me and makes me not want to watch any NBA ball.

To me it's like saying "If I do my sister, then my mom, then let my dirty uncle have his way with me I might get invited to thanksgiving at my 3rd cousins house...and she's hot, so that's my best chance to hit that."
Just leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.
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Wow!! Now that's an anology!!
 
BluesRocker said:
What pick was Favors again?

What picks were Durant, Lebron,Wade, CP3, Dwill, Rose, Dwight Howard, Duncan, and many others?

Oh that's right, they were really high picks. How did those teams get those picks? Oh that's right, they had to suck.



How many championships has the Utah model won? Oh that's right. Zero. I know you aren't guaranteed a championship with a top guy but you are guaranteed not to win one without one or two of them.

You clowns have been drinking too much Koolaid from the Jazz front office. Being mediocre all the time isn't a good thing. They are just selling you tickets of a small amount of hope.

No one here in there right mind would suggest we try to suck all the time. Right now is just the right time to do it. Derrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. We have a golden opportunity right now to create an OKC model. But that doesn't mean that should be the exact model every time. Attempting to suck every year until we found the guy would probably prove to be futile. But our situation is much different right now. We have a nice start going and wouldn't hurt to add a couple more lottery picks for some insurance. This opportunity is going to come around again.
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Of all those picks how many have championships? Wade and Duncan. And Wade didn't win **** until Shaq showed up via free agency. You should go over the list of high picks that were busts, a vast majority I would say. You have **** ideas and comments. God Damn you for ruining my day.
 
BluesRocker said:
What pick was Favors again?

What picks were Durant, Lebron,Wade, CP3, Dwill, Rose, Dwight Howard, Duncan, and many others?

Oh that's right, they were really high picks. How did those teams get those picks? Oh that's right, they had to suck.

How many championships has the Utah model won? Oh that's right. Zero. I know you aren't guaranteed a championship with a top guy but you are guaranteed not to win one without one or two of them.

You clowns have been drinking too much Koolaid from the Jazz front office. Being mediocre all the time isn't a good thing. They are just selling you tickets of a small amount of hope.

No one here in there right mind would suggest we try to suck all the time. Right now is just the right time to do it. Derrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. We have a golden opportunity right now to create an OKC model. But that doesn't mean that should be the exact model every time. Attempting to suck every year until we found the guy would probably prove to be futile. But our situation is much different right now. We have a nice start going and wouldn't hurt to add a couple more lottery picks for some insurance. This opportunity is going to come around again.
Click to expand...

I agree. two more pieces could be the difference. The Jazz have a great opportunity to get to that level if they want to.
 
orangello said:
I don't follow you. I don't see how those things connect, but you can ignore me because I am not incest.
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I was trying to throw something out there that would be as distasteful to me as a team tanking to get a slim chance at a franchise changing player.
 
BluesRocker said:
What pick was Favors again?

What picks were Durant, Lebron,Wade, CP3, Dwill, Rose, Dwight Howard, Duncan, and many others?

Oh that's right, they were really high picks. How did those teams get those picks? Oh that's right, they had to suck.

How many championships has the Utah model won? Oh that's right. Zero. I know you aren't guaranteed a championship with a top guy but you are guaranteed not to win one without one or two of them.

You clowns have been drinking too much Koolaid from the Jazz front office. Being mediocre all the time isn't a good thing. They are just selling you tickets of a small amount of hope.

No one here in there right mind would suggest we try to suck all the time. Right now is just the right time to do it. Derrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. We have a golden opportunity right now to create an OKC model. But that doesn't mean that should be the exact model every time. Attempting to suck every year until we found the guy would probably prove to be futile. But our situation is much different right now. We have a nice start going and wouldn't hurt to add a couple more lottery picks for some insurance. This opportunity is going to come around again.
Click to expand...

Right, so what I'm saying is DON'T REWARD TEAMS FOR SUCKING! Don't let this be the culture of the NBA.

"If we can't win a championship the best strategy is to lose games on purpose."

^Yeah, sign me up as a fan of a league that follows that philosophy, please.^
 
I agree with the objectives.
Of the two problems, the flopping should be easy to fix if the league wanted to do it. They just seem oblivious to what is going on.
The tanking issue is more difficult.
I would consider just making the selections more random. There is too much incentive for teams to tank. Maybe just give every team that doesn't make the playoffs an equal chance at picks. Or even every team that doesn't make it to the finals, or some variation of this. Buit then you've got to figure out some other ways to help the bottom teams stay competitive. I would do away with the ability of teams to go over the salary caps to resign their own players, that just gets them into trouble.
 
The most ironic thing about the call to tank the season around here is that The Jazz would probably have nearly the same record if they played, Favors, Kanter and Burks 30mpg and dumped Jefferson and Harris for picks.
 
candrew said:
The most ironic thing about the call to tank the season around here is that The Jazz would probably have nearly the same record if they played, Favors, Kanter and Burks 30mpg and dumped Jefferson and Harris for picks.
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I have felt that all along. I would say that Favors and Burks are deserving of at least 30 mpg, but Kanter should be closer to 20 mpg.
 
I like the idea of a more random lottery, and including 1st round playoff losers in the mix.
 
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