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This guy is Mormon?

LogGrad98 said:
That first question is really the core of it, isn't it.

My sister-in-law is a staunch anti-mormon. She started out LDS, very active in her childhood and into her 20's. She went to BYU-Idaho (then it was Rick's). Then she went back east and her attitudes changed. She started sleeping around and all that crap and left the church and for a long time was very very bitter. It consumed her, the animosity she felt to the church and, in her words, the "devastating culture of guilt and shame" that ruined her life, tainted her relationships with everyone. We had some long, often painful, discussions of what the church meant to all of us (my wife and I and her siblings). I really felt for her, even while her siblings lashed out, since they were also dealing with some of the emotional issues from their shared childhood (if you look up "dysfunctional family" in the dictionary you get a photo of my wife's family).

Finally, after about a decade of this, it seemed almost overnight, my SIL had a change of heart. I got her to talk about it one day and what she said mirrored what you say here almost exactly.

Her change of heart was not coming back into the LDS fold, but rather, being at peace with her own belief system. She felt at odds with her family, and herself, and she realized it was not "their" problem, it was hers. What you described about feelings is EXACTLY what she said brought her peace. She had fasted and prayed and read the bible, wanting to find peace. She had an epiphany (her words) that, although the mormon church is ABSOLUTELY wrong, it isn't necessarily evil. It doesn't have to be viewed as the enemy. She said her feelings told her that the path she was on was ABSOLUTELY correct. She described "feeling the spirit" exactly how we learn about it in the MTC (no she never went on a mission). She said the spirit helped her forgive the mormons she felt set her up to fail in her young life (my wife confirms her ward was like this more than others, driving every little thing home as if it were another chain dragging you to hell with no hope of release). And she felt she received forgiveness from the spirit for the contentions she caused in her family. She has worked to make amends since then as well.

It very obviously brought her peace, as the discussions around religion do not get mean and ugly any more. She "bares her testimony" of the falseness of the mormon church, of the truth of the bible and the freedom and warm spirit and peace she felt after her long nights "pouring out her soul" to God, and accepting, and being accepted and forgiven by, her Savior. She says she knows God lives, and knows that the LDS church is not his church since the spirit whispered it to her so clearly.

The evidence in her is astounding, if you knew her. She is very outspoken and often puts her foot in her mouth (even today but much less so). This is in no way something she could fake. She was always so bitter it showed in her face. She could not be around mormons without making comments. Even in random conversation she would blurt out that they were going to hell and they are destroying their children and should go to jail for raising their kids in such a damaging environment. It was painfully obvious she was not living a happy life. She has been far happier since her "spiritual rebirth" (her words), and I would say one of the most spiritual people I have known. She shows long-suffering and charity in ways she never even could before. And it has now been over a decade.

She is now far more christian in her words and deeds than her (somewhat overly-pious) brother who has been in the bishopric and/or stake presidency for the past 12 years or so, since he was about 26. My SIL shows a true testimony of Christ far stronger in its outward manifestations than my BIL ever has. I would be forced to say that I think she truly had a mighty change of heart, and received his image in her countenance. And it was in opposition to the Church.

So did the spirit whisper the truth to her? If not, how do you explain it?
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I can kind of relate to what your sister is referring to, some church leaders are absolutely ludicrous in their methods of guilt trolling. I've been pretty suspicious of local church leaders and the egoism they get in trying to mold the youth ever since I was a lowly deacon, so I consciously ignore when such a "guilt-troll practice" arises. But I do feel for other youth, who are trying so hard to be the best they can, but still get guilt trolled into thinking so poorly of themselves and the status of their salvation.

I remember having an interview with a stake president, I wasn't very fond of because of his guilt-trolling methods (he worked for the Boy Scouts of America, you do the math) , and he asked me, "Have you ever participated in Sexual Self-Mutilation?"

poker-face-meme.jpg


I mean if that isn't the epitome of hyperbolic guilt trolling. To connotatively relate *jerkin it* to ACTUAL sexual mutilation practices such as ****oral removal in oppressive Arab societies is INSANE! I feel for the youth of the church, because the church isn't in and of its self bad, but there are sure some egotistical dumbasses who probably shouldn't be in such a position of power.
 
colton said:
Even though I am a staunch Mormon, I think the Spirit can direct people to other places besides the LDS church. That is, the Spirit may well have hold her "This church is not for you", which she interpreted as "This church is not true". Take Mother Teresa, for example. If she had ever run across LDS missionaries, would God have directed her to join the LDS church? I kind of doubt it, because that is not where her mission in life lay. She probably did much more good for the world as a Catholic, than she would have been able to do as an LDS church member.
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Very interesting way to look at it. I like it. Does this mean you feel it's not as black and white as the LDS church being the only "true" religion?
 
Safetydan said:
How does it work?
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Dude, you served a mission and I'm sure you know how it works. I feel the right answer is being dodge for one reason or another. I agree with Colton that the spirit can lead people to do different things, but the spirit is not going to say, "the church is not for you." Why, because the church is for everyone - whether they like, dislike it, need it, or don't need for the fact that LDS church doctrine teaches they are the only "true" church that's authorized by god to do baptism (which Christ said to do in order to be saved.)

Now I'm not saying Mother Thersea needed to be LDS to be saved - because I also believe in work after death. All I'm saying is that the spirit "a member of the LDS godhead" isn't going to tell someone "the church isn't for you". That would be like Christ saying "the church isn't for you" imo.
 
LogGrad98 said:
That first question is really the core of it, isn't it.

So did the spirit whisper the truth to her? If not, how do you explain it?
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Let me start by saying, and I'm sure we all know this, there are many people out there that are bad examples of what their church teaches. There are people that may or may not be trying to live up to what they are trying to represent. How many times have we stopped using a certain business franchise because we got bad service at one of them. That one employee had a uniform and a tag and represented the franchise, so we stopped buying from them. Was the bad service a good representation of the service you would have received from one of the owners, probably not. This is similar to what happens in religion, only times ten. The bad experiences that are tied to religion generally do not represent the teachings of that religion. Do LDS prophets and Apostles teach various leaders to guilt trip kids into "doing what they should"? No they don't. Sometimes Bishops and Stake Presidents don't handle things the best way, but most of the time they are trying. It is very difficult for someone who has had a, or many, bad experiences with a church to overcome those. This is just human nature I am talking about.

When I talk about the LDS church being the True Church I am not talking about the people in it being perfect. I am not talking about the leaders in it being perfect. I am talking about the Church having the real Authority from Christ to do some things in his name. Does that mean the Prophet walks around all day every day, and everything he says or does is straight from Christ? No, I don't think so.

What's my point? I thought those ideas were important to the discussion. There are many very good Christians in the LDS church. There are many very good Christians in other religions. The LDS church certainly does not as someone mentioned earlier, corner the market on being Christians, living good lives, giving to others, having charity, or anything like that. They also have their fair share of people that are having a hard time living those principles. They also have enough "wolves in sheep's clothing" running around hurting people in the name of good.
What I believe the LDS Church has that other churches do not have is the Authority to perform ordinances in the name of Christ that truly will last after death. Does that mean that LDS members are better than anyone else? Nope. Does that mean we are more charitable than anyone else? Nope. Does that mean we are immune from hurting other people, or saying and doing stupid things? Nope.

I guess my idea of the Truth's that need to be proven for each individual, somewhat in this order are: (maybe not in this order, I am just throwing them up there)
Does God exist?
Is Christ the Son of God?
Did he truly Atone for our sins?
Is the Bible the word of God?
Is the Book of Mormon the word of God?
Does God still speak through Prophets?
Was Joseph Smith a Prophet?
Is the current LDS Prophet a Prophet?
Is the Priesthood authority truly the authority to perform ordinances in the name of Christ?
Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints truly the Church of Christ today?
(I'm sure I misses something, but do the same thing with every question after this)

How to answer these questions is specific to you, but some of the ways are to think it through and see if it truly makes sense. Study it out and see if you understand it fully. Live your life like the question is true and see if it makes a difference in your life. Ask God to answer your question. I'm sure I missed some other ideas that help people get the answers they are looking for.

I think my point here is that you can't just jump to the last question on your list, it's like building a cathedral or temple, you have to start answering the foundation questions before you can get to some of the more in depth or convoluted questions.

I think I am done rambling and answering nothing. These questions are hard for me because I feel like the question to fully be answered it would have to take a year of constant discussion and action.
 
So if Mother Teresa had listened to the missionaries but chosen not to be baptized, would she be damned?
 
catratcho said:
So if Mother Teresa had listened to the missionaries but chosen not to be baptized, would she be damned?
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No. That's not the argument I'm saying. In fact, read my second post from the previous page. I'm saying the spirit won't tell someone "the church isn't for you".
 
Sorry if that's the way it came across, not what I meant. Just was curious what your take on that was.
 
catratcho said:
Sorry if that's the way it came across, not what I meant. Just was curious what your take on that was.
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I do understand what you and Colton are saying, but I just think there's part of the response that's being dodged too. This is coming from a guy who's been to church once this entire year, but I've decided I'm going for sure tomorrow. ;)
 
Archie Moses said:
No. That's not the argument I'm saying. In fact, read my second post from the previous page. I'm saying the spirit won't tell someone "the church isn't for you".
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Then was it an evil spirit that so positively changed my sister-in-law's life, that brought her so much closer to God, and convinced her that she needed to love her neighbor as herself, even if before her change of heart she despised mormons (she told me that exactly once...I was one she said she didn't despise, probably because many of my beliefs are not canonical). She still says the mormon church is wrong, and she feels it is damaging to the children, but she feels love and forgiveness and acceptance. I have a hard time believing that wouldn't be something we would recognize as "the spirit".

"By their fruits ye shall know them."

As I said, this experience has really changed the way I view my own beliefs and made me think very deeply about my own religion.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Then was it an evil spirit that so positively changed my sister-in-law's life, that brought her so much closer to God, and convinced her that she needed to love her neighbor as herself, even if before her change of heart she despised mormons (she told me that exactly once...I was one she said she didn't despise, probably because many of my beliefs are not canonical). She still says the mormon church is wrong, and she feels it is damaging to the children, but she feels love and forgiveness and acceptance. I have a hard time believing that wouldn't be something we would recognize as "the spirit".

"By their fruits ye shall know them."

As I said, this experience has really changed the way I view my own beliefs and made me think very deeply about my own religion.
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There is an opposition to all things. One opposition, whispers in the ears of the children of men that all is well in Zion. I believe, the opposition I'm referring to, is very smart indeed and has been since before the world and the time of Adam and Eve.

There are people from many different religions that feel at peace with what they believe and that's it's the truth. Many of them teach good things and do feel the spirit and close to god. With that being said, having 99% of the truth, isn't having the "full" truth.
 
GVC said:
And yet, having 100% of the truth hasn't gotten you to church this year...
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I've had a lot of emotional/spiritual anxiety that I prefer to block out and not think about since my brother passed away this year. I know that sounds dumb, but it's the only way I can explain it. When I think about church things or afterlife or purpose, it stresses me out.
 
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