Trade deadline: Dismiss Rubio, bring in a back court.

[Ron Mexico]

anybody got the stats of mitchel with gobert/rubio/favors lineup? can't be pretty.

It has an offensive rating of 90 and a defensive rating of 106.4. That is pretty bad.

But Rubio is not that far off from that individually so its no surprise he is that with anyone. Rubio only has a positive net rating with Udoh and Sef. So it seems he plays slightly better off the bench.

Favors and Gobert have a positive net rating when the play without Rubio. But of the 308 min that Gobert and Favors have played together 269 of it has been with Rubio as well.

In the 20 minutes Favors and Gobert got to play with Burks at PG they recorded a whopping +37 net rating.

In the 23 minutes Favors and Gobert got to play with Mitchell at PG and Hood and Ingles also on the court they are a +21 net rating.

With the 5 minutes Gobert and Favors got to play with Neto they are +56 net rating.

It is pretty easy to spot where the problem lies.

 

[Ron Mexico]

If you want to build around Gobert and Mitchell, you can't actively undermine them with players like Favors and Rubio. What makes Mitchell special is his ability to get the basket and score. What makes Gobert useful on offense is his ability as a role man. You completely take that away when you put two non shooters on the floor with them. It's not rocket science.

I fully agree with the Rubio part. I disagree with the Favors part. Favors, Gobert and Mitchell can play together very well if you have 2 good shooting wings as well. Favors is most likely gone but that does not mean they cant play together. A good 3 point shooting big is nice but not necessary and does not necessarily make the team better if they are weak at other things like defense and rebounding.

 

[Douchebag K]

No. You get a stretch 4 to play next to Gobert. One of the main problems with Rubio on our roster right now is Gobert/Favors/Rubio lineups where there is no spacing. Favors is the one who doesn't fit. Replace him with a stretch 4 and we're looking good. Rubio/DM/Jingles/stretch 4/Gobert

Favors and Rudy worked together just fine when there was a PG who could shoot worth a damn. The main problem with Rubio is that he's Rubio and doesn't fit. Maybe we can make him and assistant coach to keep him off the floor ? He'd look pretty dapper in a suit.

 

[KqWIN]

I fully agree with the Rubio part. I disagree with the Favors part. Favors, Gobert and Mitchell can play together very well if you have 2 good shooting wings as well. Favors is most likely gone but that does not mean they cant play together. A good 3 point shooting big is nice but not necessary and does not necessarily make the team better if they are weak at other things like defense and rebounding.

Favors and Gobert had years to work and it didn't. Now Favors is older, and the league has gone more and more away from two bigs. Teams will punish you for having non shooters like never before.

Anyways, Favors is gone anyways like you said. There is no benefit to try and force this to work. Let it die, and go with what we know works. Spacing!

 

[Ron Mexico]

I am not sure Rubio would be a good PG even if you had 4 good 3 point shooters on the court with him.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Favors and Gobert had years to work and it didn't. Now Favors is older, and the league has gone more and more away from two bigs. Teams will punish you for having non shooters like never before.

Favors and Gobert have worked together well. Stats back that up every year.

Favors does stretch the floor. Gobert stretched the floor and drew defenders in on the pick and roll last year very well. There are more ways to stretch the floor than just shooting threes. You dont need a big to shoot 3s to be good and help you win.

We can get a stretch 4 but that is not going to solve anything if you still have Rubio. Rubio is not playing well now when he is on the court with Gobert and 3 shooters.

Gobert and Favors have a rare positive net rating for the Jazz this year (like every year) when they dont play with Rubio.

 

[KqWIN]

Favors and Gobert have worked together well. Stats back that up every year.

Favors does stretch the floor. Gobert stretched the floor and drew defenders in on the pick and roll last year very well. There are more ways to stretch the floor than just shooting threes. You dont need a big to shoot 3s to be good and help you win.

We can get a stretch 4 but that is not going to solve anything if you still have Rubio. Rubio is not playing well now when he is on the court with Gobert and 3 shooters.

Gobert and Favors have a rare positive net rating for the Jazz this year (like every year) when they dont play with Rubio.

They don't actually. Whenever Favors has been replaced by a bad PF (Lyles, Diaw, Booker), the team has not dropped off. If the team can perform just as well with a bad PF on the court, then Favors is also a bad PF. The duo almost exclusively played in the starting lineup with Hayward. Of course it was going to be positive, just as it was with whatever bad PF we had that wasn't Favors.

The duo is not positive because they work together, it was positive in spite of them because it shared the floor with other good players.

Favors does not stretch the floor, unless you consider long 2's that the defense is begging you to shoot stretching the floor. Rudy does stretch the defense vertically by rolling to the rim, but that doesn't matter if Favors' defender can help on Rudy.

It's also not just about spacing. It's about playmaking as well. Favors and Gobert have very little to no playmaking ability. It would be one thing if they could take one dribble and pass, but neither can. Having two non shooters AND two non playmakers is no good for an offense like ours.

 

[Ron Mexico]

They don't actually. Whenever Favors has been replaced by a bad PF (Lyles, Diaw, Booker), the team has not dropped off. If the team can perform just as well with a bad PF on the court, then Favors is also a bad PF. The duo almost exclusively played in the starting lineup with Hayward. Of course it was going to be positive, just as it was with whatever bad PF we had that wasn't Favors.

Stats have said otherwise.

Favors does not stretch the floor, unless you consider long 2's that the defense is begging you to shoot stretching the floor. Rudy does stretch the defense vertically by rolling to the rim, but that doesn't matter if Favors' defender can help on Rudy.

Stretching the floor has a lot more to it than that. Gobert was drawing in 2 or 3 defenders on the pick and roll last year. It really opened up the court a lot. It does matter if Favors man leaves him because then Gobert can pass over to him for an easy dunk or mid range shot. Favors also stretches the floor with shooting, he shoots the mid range decent enough that guys step out on him. He also can open the court in pick and roll.

Having two non shooters AND two non playmakers is no good for an offense like ours

Our offense has been good with them together this year when Mitchell, Burks or Neto is at PG.

It is kind of a moot point though since Favors is gone soon.

 

[KqWIN]

Stats have said otherwise.

No they don't, they say what I said. We were just as good with bad PF's than we were with Favors. So what does that say about Favors as a PF?

Stretching the floor has a lot more to it than that. Gobert was drawing in 2 or 3 defenders on the pick and roll last year. It really opened up the court a lot. It does matter if Favors man leaves him because then Gobert can pass over to him for an easy dunk or mid range shot. Favors also stretches the floor with shooting, he shoots the mid range decent enough that guys step out on him. He also can open the court in pick and roll.

It doesn't matter if the defender that Gobert draws is Favors' defender. The defense wants him to take a mid range shot. They are begging him to take a mid range shot. His threat as a mid range shooter absolutely does not threaten the defense and draw defenders. He is not a good mid range shooter and never really has been. Over the past 3 seasons he's shooting 39% from 10-16 and 36% from 16+. Even if he was a good mid range shooter, it's still the worst shot in basketball.

Our offense has been good with them together this year when Mitchell, Burks or Neto is at PG.

The Jazz have played a whopping 39 minutes with Favors+Gobert without Rubio. That's a tiny sample size and most of it has come with Mitchell, Hood, and Ingles.

 

[yamers]

who says no?

 

[gregbroncs]

We won't be going anywhere in the playoffs this year or next year if you didn't realize. Which is why I said if Rubio doesn't work out we can just let him walk in 2019 when we are set to have some cap room.

My point is why play him then? We know he'll never be a shooter. So why bother wasting time trying to make it work? While your doing so you are stunting Mitchells growth, and ruining the chemistry of the team. It's a failure, time to move on.

 

[mellow]

Wanted him to succeed, now i want him to leave.

Its sad, like breakingup with a nice girl you wanted to like, but could never love.

 

[Ron Mexico]

No they don't, they say what I said. We were just as good with bad PF's than we were with Favors. So what does that say about Favors as a PF?


The Jazz have played a whopping 39 minutes with Favors+Gobert without Rubio. That's a tiny sample size and most of it has come with Mitchell, Hood, and Ingles.

Stats say we were best with Favors at PF even though he was hurt last year.

Just because we won a lot of games and Favors was hurt last year does not mean we played better with him out. We played well despite him being out. When he was in we were even better. Stats say we would have won close to 60 games last year if Favors had played the whole year and that is not taking into account that he was hobbled.

 

[gregbroncs]

If you want to build around Gobert and Mitchell, you can't actively undermine them with players like Favors and Rubio. What makes Mitchell special is his ability to get the basket and score. What makes Gobert useful on offense is his ability as a role man. You completely take that away when you put two non shooters on the floor with them. It's not rocket science.

They should be running the pnr with Favors not Gobert. Gobert is better as a rebounder. Favors adds a pick and pop dimension that Gobert simply doesn't have. Favors, Gobert can work. But you can't win with a PG that can't shoot.

 

[Ron Mexico]

FYI of our 2 man big man combos last year Favors and Gobert were our best with a positive net rating of 10.7 in 541 minutes together. The offensive rating was 107.2 and the defensive rating was 96.5.

That is much better than our team average last year of 4.7 net rating. Our offense was the same and our defense was much much better with these two on the court together.

Favors and Gobert were a better 2 man combo on the court than Gobert and Hayward or Hayward and Hill.

They were good together. Last year injures hurt us a lot. This year the difference is Rubio playing with them.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Ill keep going the year before in 15-16 they were our best big combo and our team was a positive net rating with them playing together at +4.2 and a great offensive rating 106.4 (which is one of the best offensive ratings that year for teams) and much better than our negative net rating as a team.

The year before in 14-15 Favors was the best big to play with gobert and had a better than team average net rating +4.7 despite our team only being +0.5 that year.

 

[KqWIN]

Stats say we were best with Favors at PF even though he was hurt last year.

Just because we won a lot of games and Favors was hurt last year does not mean we played better with him out. We played well despite him being out. When he was in we were even better. Stats say we would have won close to 60 games last year if Favors had played the whole year and that is not taking into account that he was hobbled.

Saying "stats say" doesn't magically make them come true.

Here are the numbers with Gobert+Hayward on the court. It is not fair to compare just Gobert+Favors against other lineups, because Gobert+Favors played almost exclusively with Hayward while other combinations did not.

2016-2017
Favors - +8.2
Diaw - +8.3
Johnson - +12.3
Lyles - +10.2

2015-2016
Favors - +4.8
Booker - +9.0
Lyles - -0.6

It's important to note that these players are not good! PF was a weak position, and if it's even a debate that we are as good with someone like Diaw on the floor in your place that is not a good place to be.

PS: That stat about Favors adding 9 wins if he was healthy is BS, wherever you got that from.

 

[Douchebag K]

it's not rocket science Rubio + anyone sucks ballz Derrick + Rudy has actually worked.

Did i mention Ricky sucks the sweat off a dead man's ballz ??

i may stop watching games if he keeps doing his thing

 

[Ron Mexico]

Saying "stats say" doesn't magically make them come true.

Here are the numbers with Gobert+Hayward on the court. It is not fair to compare just Gobert+Favors against other lineups, because Gobert+Favors played almost exclusively with Hayward while other combinations did not.

2016-2017
Favors - +8.2
Diaw - +8.3
Johnson - +12.3
Lyles - +10.2

2015-2016
Favors - +4.8
Booker - +9.0
Lyles - -0.6

It's important to note that these players are not good! PF was a weak position, and if it's even a debate that we are as good with someone like Diaw on the floor in your place that is not a good place to be.

PS: That stat about Favors adding 9 wins if he was healthy is BS, wherever you got that from.

I didnt just say stats and hope it comes true I posted them above.

Are these three man lineups net ratings? Where are they from. They dont lineup up with net ratings I show on NBA.com with 3 man lineups.

Hayward - Diaw - Gobert was close last year with a +8.7 but that combo with Favors instead was a +9. With Lyles it was +7.3. So I am not sure where you got those numbers.

Also Hayward played a lot more with Gobert and either Johnson or Diaw than Hayward did with Gobert and Favors. In fact he played with those other combos almost twice as much as the one with Favors.

 

[KqWIN]

I didnt just say stats and hope it comes true I posted them above.

Are these three man lineups net ratings? Where are they from. They dont lineup up with net ratings I show on NBA.com with 3 man lineups.

https://www.cleaningtheglass.com which filters out garbage time.

Even if we use the number from NBA.com, it's not a big difference between Johnson, Diaw, Lyles, Favors which is the point. You replace Favors at the 4 with a bad player, and the team performs at a similar level.