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Trump Threatens Nuclear War

[MENTION=4984]Bulletproof[/MENTION] is right on the devastation that Seoul would suffer. Estimates are that N. Korea has around 13,000 artillery pieces embedded and in range, ready to fire, of Seoul.

13,000, let that sink in. Artillery can fire anywhere from 15 to 30 rounds per minute.

But let's assume that the N. Koreans know we are coming before we arrive and the order to fire arrives 3 minutes before our forces do. Let's say only 50% choose to fire at the low end of 15 rounds per minute.

13,000 / 2 = 6,500

6,500 x 15 rounds per minutes = 97,500 rounds per minutes.

97,500 rounds per minute x 3 minutes = 292,500 rounds.

It is entirely plausible that Seoul just got hit with about 300,000 (I'd bet on that being closer to 450,000) artillery rounds in the span of 3 minutes. The minimum casualties from that would be at least 10s of thousands. That is only before our guys get on site. And even once on site many artillery pieces would continue to fire for quite some time.

Seoul would be a waste land. It would be monumentally catastrophic. One of the worst atrocities of human history.
 
NK will never do anything, just ignore the crazy leader.

NK can't build a missile, let alone a nuke, don't worry about the crazy leader.

NK won't be able to build a nuke, don't worry about the crazy leader.

NK won't ever fire the nuke they built, don't worry about the crazy leader.

Look, I don't think we should nuke them, but acting like if we just ignore them they'll just go away is stupid too. We've been doing that for 20 years, and now here they are with nukes. We have a crazy dictator, with a nuke. Everything is ok guys!!!
 
JustTheTip said:
NK will never do anything, just ignore the crazy leader.

NK can't build a missile, let alone a nuke, don't worry about the crazy leader.

NK won't be able to build a nuke, don't worry about the crazy leader.

NK won't ever fire the nuke they built, don't worry about the crazy leader.

Look, I don't think we should nuke them, but acting like if we just ignore them they'll just go away is stupid too. We've been doing that for 20 years, and now here they are with nukes. We have a crazy dictator, with a nuke. Everything is ok guys!!!
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I agree, it is not OK. Not OK at all. But starting a war with them will be catastrophic.

So if the current policy has been a failure and the US starting the war is a massive blunder what is left?

Well I think the US needs to continue preparing for the worst case scenarios.

And

We could engage with Russia and China to put additional pressure on N. Korea and try to affect change. But they will probably want something. Like the US recognizing their claims to Crimea and the S. China Sea.

Or

We could engage in talks and try to slowly bring them into the modern world. Let the taste of modern tech, food and what not. Start to create a rot within his own ranks. Maybe start with something simple. Like "stop making threats and we will provide a monthly food shipment"

Once they are on not such aggressive terms we slowly start to feel out his staff and generals. Find one that is not so hostile towards us. And have him replace Kim.
 
There are a few bad posts here. Some actual knowledge of the situation should be a requirement for anyone to post.

NK initated their nuclear weapons program in response to crippling sanctions and famine due to the floods they saw in the mid/late 90s. The invasion of Iraq only solidified the necessity (in their mind) to develop a nuclear deterrent.

They haven't steadily been working towards nuclear armament since 1953. They resorted to it in the late 90s early 2000s because they saw no alternative.

Think about it, if NK didn't possess any WMDs, how much easier would it be do invade and change the regime?

Our foreign policy over the past 20-25 years has contributed to their need to develop WMDs.

But their use of WMDs is 100 percent contigent on us. NK won't fire off a nuke unless they feel like the jig is up and they have no other alternative.

For those looking into NK's history and desire to seek understanding the Kim mentality:

https://www.amazon.com/Real-North-Korea-Politics-Stalinist/dp/1511383941

Should be required reading for anyone to post in this thread.
 
This combined with Trump's inflammatory rhetoric couldn't have anything to do with our current situation, right?

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/21/asia/north-korea-drought/index.html

North Korea is still recovering from a deadly famine in the late 1990s, and the UN's World Food Programme estimates 70% of the country's 25 million people still don't eat a "sufficiently diverse diet."
Now a prolonged period of dry weather, falling over North Korea's important growing season of April to June, has put their staple crops of rice and maize at risk.
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Food not nukes or tweets will solve this problem.

Invasion or nukes will only worsen it.

And with our debt approaching $20 trillion and conservatives desiring tax cuts, do they really want to start a war right now? Want the debt to hit $25 or $30 trillion?

Let's start another war!!!

Shock and awe!

Right?
 
The Thriller said:
There are a few bad posts here. Some actual knowledge of the situation should be a requirement for anyone to post.

NK initated their nuclear weapons program in response to crippling sanctions and famine due to the floods they saw in the mid/late 90s. The invasion of Iraq only solidified the necessity (in their mind) to develop a nuclear deterrent.

They haven't steadily been working towards nuclear armament since 1953. They resorted to it in the late 90s early 2000s because they saw no alternative.

Think about it, if NK didn't possess any WMDs, how much easier would it be do invade and change the regime?

Our foreign policy over the past 20-25 years has contributed to their need to develop WMDs.

But their use of WMDs is 100 percent contigent on us. NK won't fire off a nuke unless they feel like the jig is up and they have no other alternative.

For those looking into NK's history and desire to seek understanding the Kim mentality:

https://www.amazon.com/Real-North-Korea-Politics-Stalinist/dp/1511383941

Should be required reading for anyone to post in this thread.
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Rubbish, their conventional ballistic missile capacity already poses a significant threat to the Japanese, if they bombed Japan the economic consequences alone for the west would be huge. I'm actually surprised China hasn't put more pressure on NK, they have a security interest in maintaining a buffer zone between the south and their american allies on their border but they have a much larger interest in maintaining an ordered and safe region for trade.

While people bang on about NK what about nuclear security in Pakistan? A nuclear state on its way to being a failed state, if Al Qaeda or any of their fellow travelers were to source a bomb I'd bet it would be Pakistani in origin. And the likely destination for it would be New York, Washington, London or Paris, detonated in the back of a rental truck.
 
DownUnder said:
if you want to die of boredom
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I would die happiest man alive there...

spring-creek.jpg
 
Rubashov said:
Rubbish, their conventional ballistic missile capacity already poses a significant threat to the Japanese, if they bombed Japan the economic consequences alone for the west would be huge. I'm actually surprised China hasn't put more pressure on NK, they have a security interest in maintaining a buffer zone between the south and their american allies on their border but they have a much larger interest in maintaining an ordered and safe region for trade.

While people bang on about NK what about nuclear security in Pakistan? A nuclear state on its way to being a failed state, if Al Qaeda or any of their fellow travelers were to source a bomb I'd bet it would be Pakistani in origin. And the likely destination for it would be New York, Washington, London or Paris, detonated in the back of a rental truck.
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But why would they bomb Japan? What do they gain by that?

And then you ask, "I'm surprised that China hasn't put more pressure..."

You essentially answer your own question.

NK isn't going to use weapons on SK, China, or the Japan unless they truly feel they have no other alternative and their end is near due to military intervention.

That's why.

Some of you are watching too much 24 or James Bond. The kim regime has zero ambitions to conquer the world. For them, it's self preservation. Attacking anyone ensures their own destruction. Bombing SK or Japan with conventional weapons or WMDs does zero to promote their agenda of self preservation.

Grandstanding does, insomuch that it earns them food and medicine in return.

Food and medicine will cool them off. Not nukes or incendiary rhetoric
 
The Thriller said:
But why would they bomb Japan?

And then you ask, "I'm surprised that China hasn't put more pressure..."

You essentially answer your own question.

NK isn't going to use weapons on SK, China, or the Japan unless they truly feel they have no other alternative and their end is near due to military intervention.

That's why.
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No they use the threat of using them in order to gain concession and money from the West. That sort of bargaining has been going on for years, who knows what will happen, I don't think war is likely but the Military-Industrial complex in the US needs a villain, the only guarantee is the suffering of the North Korean population will go on without abatement.
 
Some of you need to ask yourselves:

1. Why would kim bomb Guam? Why would kim bomb SK? Why would kim bomb the United States?

2. If you were in a similiar situation as Kim, what would you do? You're reviled by western powers, crippled by sanctions, party "Juche" ideology, and a failed economic system.

You cannot gradually modernize, like China did. This would invite democratic powers that would destroy your regime and most likely execute the Kim family and associates.

You cannot just throw in the towel, like Gorbachav did, and escape with your life. What other alternative does the Kim regime have but to maintain this game of chicken and use it to provide food for your citizenry and propaganda to keep you in power?
 
Rubashov said:
No they use the threat of using them in order to gain concession and money from the West. That sort of bargaining has been going on for years, who knows what will happen, I don't think war is likely but the Military-Industrial complex in the US needs a villain, the only guarantee is the suffering of the North Korean population will go on without abatement.
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Agreed.

But they're (North Korean people) going to suffer either way, regime change or not.

Is America even capable right now of liberating NK? Let's think long term since we clearly didn't do that the last time we invaded another country. Is America really down with spending the next 10-30 years in NK to set up that side of the peninsula? Keep in mind that unifying the peninsula isn't very popular among SKeans and is very unpopular among the Chinese. So their... financial contributions would most likely be minimal.

Is the "Make America Great Again" crowd down with slashing opioid addiction support, infrastructure spending, social security, and increasing taxes so we can rebuild NK? Or are we just gonna place rebuilding NK on Uncle Sam's credit card? And when will we get serious about our debt? Once it hits $25 trillion? $30 trillion? What about the human cost too? Do we even have enough manpower or would we have to reinstate the draft?

And then what happens if Putin takes advantage of America's focus on the Korean Peninsula and invades the rest of Eastern Europe? Then what? Open up a 2 front war/nation building?

Cool!
 
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Thriller is trying to act like a legitimately crazy dictator is going to think logically.

Which is crazy.

Also, it's our fault NK has nukes, and if we were to just give them food, everything would be rosy.
 
Sirkickyass said:
Let me go the other way on this: We've all been wrong forever about North Korea.

There is no credible military action that we can threaten unless NK believes we're willing to sacrifice a million casualties in Seoul. We are not monsters and we're not going to do that. That's been true for decades.

Counterpoint: What does Kim really want? To be treated like any other country. To be invited to the stupid state dinners as a head of state. To not be treated like an outlaw for existing.

Is the correct direction of US leadership to move to a position of ambiguity that allows de-esclation? In essence: we are not leaving South Korea as long as they want us, but we are no longer making the toppling of the North Korean regime an explicit goal of US foreign policy.
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This is easily the best post of the thread and no one has come close to debunking the points brought up in it.

There are a few of you who keep repeating the tired and ignorant talking points without answering the basic questions that Kicky brings up.
 
The Thriller said:
Agreed.

But they're (North Korean people) going to suffer either way, regime change or not.

Is America even capable right now of liberating NK? Let's think long term since we clearly didn't do that the last time we invaded another country. Is America really down with spending the next 10-30 years in NK to set up that side of the peninsula? Keep in mind that unifying the peninsula isn't very popular among SKeans and is very unpopular among the Chinese. So their... financial contributions would most likely be minimal.

Is the "Make America Great Again" crowd down with slashing opioid addiction support, infrastructure spending, social security, and increasing taxes so we can rebuild NK? Or are we just gonna place rebuilding NK on Uncle Sam's credit card? And when will we get serious about our debt? Once it hits $25 trillion? $30 trillion? What about the human cost too? Do we even have enough manpower or would we have to reinstate the draft?

And then what happens if Putin takes advantage of America's focus on the Korean Peninsula and invades the rest of Eastern Europe? Then what? Open up a 2 front war/nation building?

Cool!
Click to expand...

Regime change has never been a viable option for the west, originally because of cold war politics and since the 80's the risk an invasion of Korea to Japan has been too great (again the conventional ballistic missile of which the North has heaps). The US/CIA should really be trying to encourage a military coup like they do to so many democratically elected governments in South America.
 
Stoked said:
[MENTION=4984]Bulletproof[/MENTION] is right on the devastation that Seoul would suffer. Estimates are that N. Korea has around 13,000 artillery pieces embedded and in range, ready to fire, of Seoul.

13,000, let that sink in. Artillery can fire anywhere from 15 to 30 rounds per minute.

But let's assume that the N. Koreans know we are coming before we arrive and the order to fire arrives 3 minutes before our forces do. Let's say only 50% choose to fire at the low end of 15 rounds per minute.

13,000 / 2 = 6,500

6,500 x 15 rounds per minutes = 97,500 rounds per minutes.

97,500 rounds per minute x 3 minutes = 292,500 rounds.

It is entirely plausible that Seoul just got hit with about 300,000 (I'd bet on that being closer to 450,000) artillery rounds in the span of 3 minutes. The minimum casualties from that would be at least 10s of thousands. That is only before our guys get on site. And even once on site many artillery pieces would continue to fire for quite some time.

Seoul would be a waste land. It would be monumentally catastrophic. One of the worst atrocities of human history.
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so when it comes time for war. jsut silently drop a H-Bomb! and wipe your hands clean!
 
The Thriller said:
2. If you were in a similiar situation as Kim, what would you do? You're reviled by western powers, crippled by sanctions, party "Juche" ideology, and a failed economic system.
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i would never ever be in the same situation as kim. because only leftist get in that situation!

leftism always turns into dictatorship

then other lefties claim it wa snot true communism, or not true socialism. it was rigth wing extremism.

that man is literally holding a whole country hostage. nuke them to ****!
 
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