Ukraine

[Stoked]

Took this from the report:

"All illegal armed groups must be disarmed; all illegally seized buildings must be returned to legitimate owners; all illegally occupied streets, squares and other public places in Ukrainian cities and towns must be vacated,” the agreement stated"

Well the US, EU and Ukraine see the protestores as the illegal groups. Russia sees the current Ukranian gov. as illegal. They have said as much numerous times. So I am not overly optimistic that this will do much.

Glad to see they called for restraint. Despite Putin calling Crimea and all of southeastern Ukraine "New Russia".

 

[Harambe]

Took this from the report:

"All illegal armed groups must be disarmed; all illegally seized buildings must be returned to legitimate owners; all illegally occupied streets, squares and other public places in Ukrainian cities and towns must be vacated,” the agreement stated"

Well the US, EU and Ukraine see the protestores as the illegal groups. Russia sees the current Ukranian gov. as illegal. They have said as much numerous times. So I am not overly optimistic that this will do much.

Glad to see they called for restraint. Despite Putin calling Crimea and all of southeastern Ukraine "New Russia".

I'm still pretty out of the loop. Why is Russia not recognizing the government?

 

[Harambe]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Euromaidan_and_2014_revolution

Ok. So, some s*** went down, and the president was declared no longer fit, and they were like "Uhm... lets vote on in... in MAY".

Riots... Violence... Protests... Occupations... Deaths.

Russian Military comes in to secure the area.

March 6(not May), Crimean parliament votes to join Russia. Observers from 21 different countries. Vote Passes. Public vote, March 16, 97% say Join Russia.

Claims of voter fraud, and many abstaining, regardless of the 21 different countries observers.

EU and US say it's illegal, as the Ukrainian constitution says all of Ukraine must vote, not just the affected area(Crimea).

Poorly written constitution, imo, is to blame for this mess. That's like saying if Jim Bob wants to be a Fireman instead of the family business(farming), everyone in the family has to vote on it.

 

[Stoked]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Euromaidan_and_2014_revolution

Ok. So, some s*** went down, and the president was declared no longer fit, and they were like "Uhm... lets vote on in... in MAY".

Riots... Violence... Protests... Occupations... Deaths.

Russian Military comes in to secure the area.

March 6(not May), Crimean parliament votes to join Russia. Observers from 21 different countries. Vote Passes. Public vote, March 16, 97% say Join Russia.

Claims of voter fraud, and many abstaining, regardless of the 21 different countries observers.

EU and US say it's illegal, as the Ukrainian constitution says all of Ukraine must vote, not just the affected area(Crimea).

Poorly written constitution, imo, is to blame for this mess. That's like saying if Jim Bob wants to be a Fireman instead of the family business(farming), everyone in the family has to vote on it.

Basically protestors over threw the old governement. That is why Russia does not recognize them. They are being joined by Iran, Afghanistan, Ecuador, Belarus, Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea....

UN held a vote and the above countries voted the Crimea referendum was legal. 100ish countries said it was not. 50-60 countries (including the other BRICS members) abstained.

Russia did it anyways and took Crimea. Now the west fears Russia is trying to do the same the the rest of southeastern Ukraine. The US and EU blame Russia and Russia blames the US for the Ukrainian instability.

Several NATO countries (Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Bulgaria, Hungary and Latvia) are all panicking and demaning reinforced NATO presence as they fear the resurgent Russia. So far the US, England, France and Germany have sent additional warplanes (F15s and F16s from the US lol) to patrol the skies over Estonia, Latvia, Poland and Lithuania. War ships (just a few) were sent to the mediteranean sea nd war games were held by the US and England with Hungary, Bulgaria and Ukraine (Not a NATO member).

There is a theory that there is a sliver of land in Moldova on the west of Ukraine that is acting indendently of Moldova (Trainsetria or something like that) and Russia wants to join up with it. So they need to take the regions of Crimea, Odessa, Donetsk, Kharkiv and 1-2 others away from Ukraine to create a land bridge. Russia claims that they are doing so in the name of protecting ethnic Russians from supposed persecution (I found this to be very historically interesting).

 

[Harambe]

Basically protestors over threw the old governement. That is why Russia does not recognize them. They are being joined by Iran, Afghanistan, Ecuador, Belarus, Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea....

UN held a vote and the above countries voted the Crimea referendum was legal. 100ish countries said it was not. 50-60 countries (including the other BRICS members) abstained.

Russia did it anyways and took Crimea. Now the west fears Russia is trying to do the same the the rest of southeastern Ukraine. The US and EU blame Russia and Russia blames the US for the Ukrainian instability.

Several NATO countries (Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Bulgaria, Hungary and Latvia) are all panicking and demaning reinforced NATO presence as they fear the resurgent Russia. So far the US, England, France and Germany have sent additional warplanes (F15s and F16s from the US lol) to patrol the skies over Estonia, Latvia, Poland and Lithuania. War ships (just a few) were sent to the mediteranean sea nd war games were held by the US and England with Hungary, Bulgaria and Ukraine (Not a NATO member).

There is a theory that there is a sliver of land in Moldova on the west of Ukraine that is acting indendently of Moldova (Trainsetria or something like that) and Russia wants to join up with it. So they need to take the regions of Crimea, Odessa, Donetsk, Kharkiv and 1-2 others away from Ukraine to create a land bridge. Russia claims that they are doing so in the name of protecting ethnic Russians from supposed persecution (I found this to be very historically interesting).

Russia doesn't recognize the old government of Ukraine because the old President was ousted. That sucks and all, but I get it.

Which referendum are you talking about? The referendum from March 16th was for Crimea to be a part of Russia, or restore the old constitution. Observers of 21 countries, including the US were there and didn't raise any flags, so they can't complain about that.

Instead they complain about a loop hole, and calls Russia the bully taking over? Seriously? That's my government?

 

[Stoked]

Russia doesn't recognize the old government of Ukraine because the old President was ousted. That sucks and all, but I get it.

Which referendum are you talking about? The referendum from March 16th was for Crimea to be a part of Russia, or restore the old constitution. Observers of 21 countries, including the US were there and didn't raise any flags, so they can't complain about that.

Instead they complain about a loop hole, and calls Russia the bully taking over? Seriously? That's my government?

That one.

Just because it is hypocritical does not mean it isnt true. Russia gets mad when the US does things like this and we get mad when Russia does.

 

[Harambe]

That one.

Just because it is hypocritical does not mean it isnt true. Russia gets mad when the US does things like this and we get mad when Russia does.

Someone's gotta stop the shenanigans.

 

[Stoked]

Someone's gotta stop the shenanigans.

Oh I agree. America, Russia and the EU need to call the Ukrainian president and tell him to resolve this with the smallest amount of bloodshed possible an let the Ukrainians figure it out.

 

[Harambe]

Oh I agree. America, Russia and the EU need to call the Ukrainian president and tell him to resolve this with the smallest amount of bloodshed possible an let the Ukrainians figure it out.

But there isn't a president.. just a parliament. What happens if the parliament decides not to let Crimea join the Russian federation? Are we really going to blame Russia for "forcefully allowing" a unit of land to become part of the Russian federation?

 

[Stoked]

But there isn't a president.. just a parliament. What happens if the parliament decides not to let Crimea join the Russian federation? Are we really going to blame Russia for "forcefully allowing" a unit of land to become part of the Russian federation?

It's the precedent it sets. Should Mexico allow us to just takes Baja in a similar fashion? Should we allow Canada to take Alaska?

Like it or not it was against the Ukrainian constitution. It has been voted illegal in the UN. But at the end of the day what should America be prepared to do to get it back for Ukraine?

I say no to war. that's for damn sure.

 

[Harambe]

It's the precedent it sets. Should Mexico allow us to just takes Baja in a similar fashion? Should we allow Canada to take Alaska?

Like it or not it was against the Ukrainian constitution. It has been voted illegal in the UN. But at the end of the day what should America be prepared to do to get it back for Ukraine?

I say no to war. that's for damn sure.

If The Baja'ns want to be part of America, and America will have them, yes. If Alaska would rather be part of Canada, and Canada wants them, Yes.

The Ukranian constitution was voted out in Crimea, and those people voted for membership into the Russian federation. I fail to see how we should stick our nose in any of this.

 

[Stoked]

If The Baja'ns want to be part of America, and America will have them, yes. If Alaska would rather be part of Canada, and Canada wants them, Yes.

The Ukranian constitution was voted out in Crimea, and those people voted for membership into the Russian federation. I fail to see how we should stick our nose in any of this.

With Russian troops all over the ground there and anti russian demonstrators being attacked. I'd hardly call that a fair vote.

But the way it is now is that Crimea is Russian and short of war that isn't changing. So Russia can keep it.

 

[Stoked]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...o-Russian-separatists-reject-Geneva-deal.html

Some of the pro-Russian protestors are now making extra demands and refusing to comply with the agreement.

 

[Harambe]

With Russian troops all over the ground there and anti russian demonstrators being attacked. I'd hardly call that a fair vote.
.

The observers of 21 countries beg to differ.

 

[Stoked]

The observers of 21 countries beg to differ.

Oh you mean 21 of the nations that declared it illegal? Or that they commented on it being agaisnt Ukraine's constitution? Or that the vote was boycotted by those opposed because it. was. illegal.

 

[Harambe]

Oh you mean 21 of the nations that declared it illegal? Or that they commented on it being agaisnt Ukraine's constitution? Or that the vote was boycotted by those opposed because it. was. illegal.

The ones that haven't come out and said anything was wrong with the vote, other than it "shouldn't have happened"

 

[Stoked]

The ones that haven't come out and said anything was wrong with the vote, other than it "shouldn't have happened"

So that it was illegal and boycotted isn't enough for you?

Not sure why we are arguing that. The vote was taken and Russia has full control of Crimea and only war, which we both heartily oppose, will get it back.

Saw this interesting article today that goes along with that theory I gave you a page or two back.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/18/world/europe/russia-ukraine.html

Look at the map of that area about 1/2 way down the page. Shows you that it stretches to that sliver in Moldova.

 

[Harambe]

So that it was illegal and boycotted isn't enough for you?

Not sure why we are arguing that. The vote was taken and Russia has full control of Crimea and only war, which we both heartily oppose, will get it back.

Saw this interesting article today that goes along with that theory I gave you a page or two back.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/18/world/europe/russia-ukraine.html

Look at the map of that area about 1/2 way down the page. Shows you that it stretches to that sliver in Moldova.

Put yourself in Crimea. There are riots and all manner of unsavory behavior. Russia comes in and secures the streets. The people then voted and 97% want to join Russia. There is 0 solid evidence that there was any tampering or intimidation other than "Oh that MUST have happened".

So why are we still trying to treat Russia like the jerks here?

 

[Stoked]

Put yourself in Crimea. There are riots and all manner of unsavory behavior. Russia comes in and secures the streets. The people then voted and 97% want to join Russia. There is 0 solid evidence that there was any tampering or intimidation other than "Oh that MUST have happened".

So why are we still trying to treat Russia like the jerks here?

They went in and stole part of a country away. It is against international law.

Russia was afraid that the new governemnt in Kiev was hostile to Russia and would break accords that Russia had for its naval base. So Russia moved in and took it.

Not to mention that the violence was not in Crimea. It was in Kiev. In fact the only reported violence was by pro-russian Crimeans in the build up to the referendum to join russia. Links:

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/16/world/europe/un-cites-abuses-in-crimea.html

https://time.com/40497/un-crimea-russia-ukraine-general-assembly/

Edit: To clairfy Roach. I do not think Russia could take the chance that they lost their port in Crimea (Sevastopol). They felt their backs were to the wall and they had to act. I probably would have reached a similar decision. That does not make it legal though. But either way that is done and over. Crimea is Russian now.

What I am most interested in is if we see Russia push into eastern Ukraine and all the way to Moldova. I am starting to think that Putin wants all the old USSR territory under his control again. Coutnries like Uzbekistan and Belarus fall in line and that suits him. Countries like Ukrian and Georgia have not so he took it by force.

That in turn makes some easter European NATO members nervous. Particularly Poland. It will be interesting to see how NATO responds to their members worries.

 

[Harambe]

They went in and stole part of a country away. It is against international law.

Russia was afraid that the new governemnt in Kiev was hostile to Russia and would break accords that Russia had for its naval base. So Russia moved in and took it.

Not to mention that the violence was not in Crimea. It was in Kiev. In fact the only reported violence was by pro-russian Crimeans in the build up to the referendum to join russia. Links:

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/16/world/europe/un-cites-abuses-in-crimea.html

https://time.com/40497/un-crimea-russia-ukraine-general-assembly/

Edit: To clairfy Roach. I do not think Russia could take the chance that they lost their port in Crimea (Sevastopol). They felt their backs were to the wall and they had to act. I probably would have reached a similar decision. That does not make it legal though. But either way that is done and over. Crimea is Russian now.

What I am most interested in is if we see Russia push into eastern Ukraine and all the way to Moldova. I am starting to think that Putin wants all the old USSR territory under his control again. Coutnries like Uzbekistan and Belarus fall in line and that suits him. Countries like Ukrian and Georgia have not so he took it by force.

That in turn makes some easter European NATO members nervous. Particularly Poland. It will be interesting to see how NATO responds to their members worries.

Ukraine, and Crimea specifically have value, and keeping them could look bad. I get it. But lets say you're Putin, and you hear the following:

"Hey, Putin, there's some serious s*** going on in the Ukraine. We've a great portion of our economy running out of one area. Should we do something?"

Do you:

A. Secure the entire country with a HUGE portion of the military
B. Secure the area your economy runs through