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We are all just a bunch of whiny b*tches

I'm going to agree with the OP in the interest of playing devil's advocate. IMO, there's one big thing not being mentioned in regards to the list he posted:

Utah is the only team in the top 12 of that list that is a small market club. I've always heard that San Antonio is a small-market team. I've never bought that argument, and I never will. However, it's not the point of my post to argue whether or not San Antonio and it's surrounding areas qualify as small market. I have long believed that it's almost a miracle that Utah has stayed "mediocre" since Stockton and Malone. With the market size, it would be very easy to slip into becoming the NBA's doormat.

It's tough. As a Jazz fan, I've certainly seen times when Utah has taken the safe route just in order to stay a .500 team. I've also seen times (D-Will trade) in which they've been amazingly bold in an attempt to insure the future viability of the franchise.

Like many fans, I'd like to see Utah miss out on an 8 seed in an attempt to secure better draft picks. However, how do you tell Corbin to lose? How do you tell D. Favors or any of our other players not to go out and play their *** off in an attempt to help this team win?

It's a slippery slope to be the Utah Jazz. Upper echelon free agents are never going to consider you, the same fans that want you to lose so you can garner better draft picks are the exact same fans that won't be showing up and shelling out ticket money to see a 20-win team. I think this orginization is between a rock and a hard place. If they ever go into full-on rebuilding mode, this franchise may very well not survive in Utah to see the fruits of those sacrifices, yet if they try to rebuild on the fly in an effort to remain a playoff contender and keeping butts in the seats, you upset fans who get angry about what they tend to see as a happiness to stay average.

To me, I would also classify Jazz fans as a whole as a group of whiny bitches. They feel they have all the easy answers as to what the Jazz are doing wrong, when in fact, it's almost impossible for Utah to do what they ask and maintain viablility as a franchise here in Utah.
 
What we see is that fans take a little while to respond, as season tickets are already locked in.

People were excited about the 04/05 season; the first post-S2M season, 2003/04 (my first year following the team), was unexpectedly fun and successful, and the Jazz added Memo and Boozer in the summer of 2004. Things fell apart that season, and average attendance fell to 18 332 in 05/06.

I don't have the figures, but I imagine the drop in attendance this season has more to do with casual fans than season ticket holders. I would guess the sales people are scrambling for renewals for next season. **** could get ugly. It makes sense that they're pushing the young players to try to keep interest in the coming season high (or at least higher than it would be if fans were expecting Al and Mo to continue leading the team). Maybe they stuck with the vets beyond the trade deadline because if the young players faltered, no one would renew season tickets for next season. This way they can continue selling hope, keep season tickets at a respectable level next season, while having slightly more mature players (and a better 2014 draft class) heading into the 2013/14 season. I can't imagine the team will look very similar next season, as failure to perform with the same group might just kill the franchise.
 
SiroMar said:
Who gives a **** about this supposed 10th place accomplishment? We're upset for specific reasons that relate to the present situation and the future of the team.
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This.

In the past, the jazz played their better players more minutes (think AK, memo, dwill, booze, millsap Matthews) and I was happy to enjoy watching my jazz get as far as they could with the talent they had.

When we are playing raja bell, josh howard, randy foye, marvin Williams, earl Watson and Jamaal tinsley over players like burks, carroll, and Hayward..... well in that case I will continue to bitch.
 
JimLes said:
What specific complaint? I'm just asking why do the Jazz fans seem like such a dour bunch, when we were one of the most successful teams in the league for 2 decades, managed to stay in the top 10 after they left, traded a franchise player(and the rest of the starting lineup, mind) and are still looking at consecutive playoffs seasons only a year removed from blowing up the team.

I'm not talking about right now. I'm talking about the fact that for the last 10 years, it's been nothing but negativity on this board(and its ancestors). Boozer's always hurt. Jerry's not playing rookie Deron. Boozer's not hurt, but he can't play D. Andrei is overpaid and complaining too much. Andrei should be traded but the idiotic FO is letting him expire. Boozer hasn't been traded. Okur and Harpring were extended for a stupid reason. Jerry Sloan needs to retire. Corbin needs to get promoted. We should trade Deron. We should not trade Deron. We should draft Jimmer over Burke. We should draft a PG over Kanter. We should tank. We should play the young guys more. We should fire Corbin, he sucks. We should tank.

Seeing as so many of the board members are not happy unless we're contending, are you telling me you've spent the last 10 years watching the Jazz and being unhappy? What the **** is the point, then? Why bother? If nothing but contention will do, haven't the last 10 years been nothing but frustration and anger for you?
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When I bitch, I generally have something specific to bitch about. People in this thread continue to make a general arguments without any substance about people who bitch - in other words, what are the things we bitch about that we shouldn't bitch about? Do we have a leg to stand on, are we justified? Just to say we are whiney-bitches without saying why is the perfect description of a whiney bitch.

In any case, isn't the purpose of a message board a place to vent and complain. Yeah, I bitched about Jerry too -- no one's perfect. But Ty is just simply BEYOND incompetent, for the multitude of specific reasons that many have pointed out on this board.
 
Eenie-Meenie said:
When I bitch, I generally have something specific to bitch about. People in this thread continue to make a general arguments without any substance about people who bitch - in other words, what are the things we bitch about that we shouldn't bitch about? Do we have a leg to stand on, are we justified? Just to say we are whiney-bitches without saying why is the perfect description of a whiney bitch.

In any case, isn't the purpose of a message board a place to vent and complain. Yeah, I bitched about Jerry too -- no one's perfect. But Ty is just simply BEYOND incompetent, for the multitude of specific reasons that many have pointed out on this board.
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this is true.
 
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Bring 'em on out how 'bout this Jazz?
 

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People definitely have the right and many many reasons to bitch, however I think it has gotten out of control to the point that it not only is it seemingly non stop but there isn't much rational thought or discussions to be had. If someone even goes against the hate or bitching they can much of the time be labeled a troll or a supporter or hater depending on the side when in reality they are just bringing some facts that differ from the hate/bitch fest.

Some people will take a small fact to complain about then spin it, twist it, add to it and repeat into oblivion until it almost seems like the board than excepts it as fact.
Example GVC loves him some Millsap and can't wait for Al to be gone but on some occasions he has unbiassedly offer stats that contradict what he wants or feels. To show Al isn't as bad or wasn't as bad that game or time period or whatever as people make up in their own heads.
That is what has annoyed me as much as anything else to be honest.

Nothing personal (always such a great way to start a sentence) to Dutch but many remember when he was looked at as an emotional nut who's posts weren't and shouldn't be taken seriously. Now it seems like he has made 20 alts and that is mostly all that is posted/read on this board.
 
Oh and for the record I wouldn't want people to accept mediocrity and not call out whoever they think is responsible for it. Just don't let it become your identity your sole purpose to post and re-post over and over and over and not post/contribute anything else. That is why IMO some people seem or come across like spoiled children.

No I'm not talking about boo'ing, last year I personally boo'd the Jazz at a couple of games, and know for a fact this year and years past the Jazz got boo'd and no one in the media said a word other than the Jazz deserved it with their poor performance. This last incident on Locke's podcast (hadn't listened) I assumed maybe some of the fans heckled and boo'd the Jazz in a time he didn't feel it was warranted as it was in the past or meet the social norm for fans boo'ing their own team.
 
doubledribble said:
let me ask you and other guys of the similar conviction... Do you perceive yourself a failure because you did not get into Harvard? Because you do not make more money than any guy that graduated with you from school? In short, do you apply to your life the same standard: first or failure?
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Stupid comparison. Life is not a game and sports are. Life can be a success and still be in the middle. Depends upon your life goals.
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As a better comparison when I play sports I consider it a failure if I don't win.
 
gregbroncs said:
As a better comparison when I play sports I consider it a failure if I don't win.
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Even when the other team/individual is better? Even if the odds are stacked against you?

I'm coaching HS soccer right now. Should I consider my kids failures if they don't finish first in the city, regardless of the enrollment or socioeconomic situation at other schools?
 
Eenie-Meenie said:
When I bitch, I generally have something specific to bitch about. People in this thread continue to make a general arguments without any substance about people who bitch - in other words, what are the things we bitch about that we shouldn't bitch about? Do we have a leg to stand on, are we justified? Just to say we are whiney-bitches without saying why is the perfect description of a whiney bitch.
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I already said why. My issue isn't with specific gripes. Everyone has those. My issue is with people(and there are several on this thread) saying that it's either championship or bust. According to that logic, every Jazz season ever has been a failure. When your expectations are a championship, there will be something to gripe about every single season, because we've never won the damn title. I have no major issue with current gripes, I have an issue with the fact that you're saying that people are only whiny because they are true. People on the board were whiny 2 years ago, 5 years ago, and 10 years ago. Oh sure, there were specific gripes back then too, and you could look at them individually and say they were all justified as well, but isn't there a pattern there?

What I'm really trying to get at is that our team just won 7 out of 8 and is in a really good spot to make the playoffs, and most people here are unhappy. The freaking game thread last night was subtitled "Does Anyone Even Care Anymore?" People are just looking for excuses to be unhappy. Is that why you're a sports fan? This is my 19th season as a Jazz fan and I can honestly say there was only one season I actually found disappointing. I get the feel that for some, they'd have to look hard for one season they didn't find disappointing.
 
JimLes said:
Even when the other team/individual is better? Even if the odds are stacked against you?

I'm coaching HS soccer right now. Should I consider my kids failures if they don't finish first in the city, regardless of the enrollment or socioeconomic situation at other schools?
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In pro sports they are on a relatively even playing field. But yes If I lose for any reason I consider it a failure. I'm competitive. But in pro sports the franchises are on relatively even playing fields.
 
gregbroncs said:
But in pro sports the franchises are on relatively even playing fields.
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Really? The Lakers are spending twice as much in player salaries as Houston. I won't even begin with their respective local TV deals. How's that different from HS soccer? The kids are just kids who happen to go to those schools. They're not pros and there is certainly no recruitment.
 
I'm not down on the Jazz for maintaining their lower seeded playoff success and not being terrible to get a pick.

I'm down on the Jazz for having a spectacular young future and not playing them, and for hiring a head coach that subscribes to that philosophy.
 
vslice02 said:
I see a distinct flaw in the philosophy and direction of the franchise since 2010-11. The Jazz ended up with more assets & lottery talent than they ever had on their roster in franchise history, yet they placed a premium on going for the 8th seed - not just once (more understandable in 2011-12) but twice (borderline insanity in 2012-13). They have a team full of free agents yet they not only hang onto them - they play them ahead of the players who will be the future of the franchise. If the talent between vets/young players is close - it makes sense to go w/the vets if you've got serious playoff aspirations. If it's close and you're a .500 team - it makes no sense to play the vets, especially when they're going to be free agents...and it's not even like these guys are rookies, they're 2nd&3rd-year players whose play has improved each season, who keep the Jazz competitive in games, yet their yearly mpg averages are ridiculous.
THAT's the issue for me: current management and coaching philosophies - not the Jazz's performance over the past decade.
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I should have just quoted this instead of adding my two cents.
 
Interesting way of looking at things. Also considering Salt Lake City is probably the smallest market in the entire league, and have still managed to stay above the other two thirds of the league in winning percentage.
 
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