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We Need to Talk About Kevin

margodydek said:
I get that. But if I were a day trader for a big firm and made them a ton of money, but then I squandered those assets a few years later, wouldn't that reflect poorly on me.
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Maybe, maybe not, who cares, you'd still be a multimillionaire. Yes, you'd likely lose your position.
You might move to another firm, or start your own, or just retire, which is fine , because you would be rich. You don't have to give back the money you made in previous years if you ruin the company , or even if you send the world economy into a tailspin.
 
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How hard is it to find and keep a good NBA GM? Portland, who had like 3 GMs in 3 years, just hired the GM from the Clippers. Sure the Clippers guy was smart enough to accept the brokered CP3 trade, but he was still the GM of the freakin Clippers. Look at his other moves...Trade the #1 overal pick (Kyrie Irving) for Mo Williams, and pay DeAndre Jordan 10 Mill.

I'm not ready for Scotty Layden GM part II, keep the KOC for now.
 
margodydek said:
I get that. But if I were a day trader for a big firm and made them a ton of money, but then I squandered those assets a few years later, wouldn't that reflect poorly on me.

Once again, I've totally backed KOC up until now, and honestly I have faith that the guy is going to make the right moves, but if he blows it I don't think it's too far-fetched to ponder his future with the Jazz.
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Squandered?

Who was he suppose to draft? It's not like anyone drafted after of Kanter, Burks, and Hayward are lighting the NBA up. Even though I would have drafted Jonas over Kanter, I think KOC has made the smart draft picks thus far. It's up to the players (the main factor people fail to hold accountable) and the coaching staff put those pieces in action.
 
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U Gotta Love It Baby said:
I hope you're just joking.

Nobody "gave him" this opportunity. He created the deals to put us in the position we are in. If you think we're in such a great position to do well in the next couple years, KOC is the guy you should be praising not firing.

I'm somewhat baffled.
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I consider this to be KOC's final exam. Look if the guy got us to multiple conference finals, then it would be a different story, but as was mentioned before he's maybe #10-#12 in the league.

As with a final exam, you can do awesome in everything preceeding the exam, but if you fail the final, then you most likely fail the class.

I hope people are not getting the impression that I think KOC should be on the chopping block. The guy has been stellar thus far, and he's put us in a great position, but if he can't complete this thing, then I think we should maybe consider someone else.

If KOC's job was to make us a potential contender, then he's done his job (heck he's probably the best in the league at rebuilding a decent team on the fly), but I think his job is to make us a contender. Potential only gets you so far.
 
margodydek said:
I consider this to be KOC's final exam. Look if the guy got us to multiple conference finals, then it would be a different story, but as was mentioned before he's maybe #10-#12 in the league.

As with a final exam, you can do awesome in everything preceeding the exam, but if you fail the final, then you most likely fail the class.

I hope people are not getting the impression that I think KOC should be on the chopping block. The guy has been stellar thus far, and he's put us in a great position, but if he can't complete this thing, then I think we should maybe consider someone else.

If KOC's job was to make us a potential contender, then he's done his job (heck he's probably the best in the league at rebuilding a decent team on the fly), but I think his job is to make us a contender. Potential only gets you so far.
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This wasn't said.

Playoff series wins should never be held as a direct-measure of a GMs success, especially when you factor in market-size, or the FA demand of a place like SLC. You're telling me that the Lakers, the mavericks, the pistons, and the Suns all have better GMs? Really?

I'd say Sam Presti and R.C Buford are probably the only clear-cut GMs thatre probably better than KOC. The media tends to agree with my sentiment (pretty sure he's placed top 5 in most of the recent GM rankings)
 
margodydek said:
I consider this to be KOC's final exam. Look if the guy got us to multiple conference finals, then it would be a different story, but as was mentioned before he's maybe #10-#12 in the league.

As with a final exam, you can do awesome in everything preceeding the exam, but if you fail the final, then you most likely fail the class.

I hope people are not getting the impression that I think KOC should be on the chopping block. The guy has been stellar thus far, and he's put us in a great position, but if he can't complete this thing, then I think we should maybe consider someone else.

If KOC's job was to make us a potential contender, then he's done his job (heck he's probably the best in the league at rebuilding a decent team on the fly), but I think his job is to make us a contender. Potential only gets you so far.
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GM's don't complete anything. They give the team the players, after that it's up to the players and coaches to complete it. He doesn't develop players, he doesn't make the players practice, he just gets them there.
 
LOL welcome to what happens when you try to bring up valid points about the savior of the JAzz.

Don't you know that he is what keeps us from folding. He is our everything. No JOke I went to an usher in the ESA and asked him "how can you afford the energy bills here?" He told me "what energy bill. We just wait for KOC to show up and the building lights up!"

I see us in the finals in two years because just like when we booed the Hayward pick KOC said "we will see who is booing in three to four years."
 
U Gotta Love It Baby said:
The reason we are in such a great situation is BECAUSE we have a good (I think great) GM. You act like the draft picks and cap space just fell in KOC's lap.
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You're obviously much, much higher on these young players than I am. I hope you're the correct one of us.


Cyrone Torbin said:
GM's don't complete anything. They give the team the players, after that it's up to the players and coaches to complete it. He doesn't develop players, he doesn't make the players practice, he just gets them there.
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Right, and coaches and trainers hire themselves. GMs have nothing to do with the organization but someone must collect a big paycheck and sit behind the big desk.
 
northeast said:
Playoff series wins are what matter. What better yardstick is there?
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A better measuring stick is whether or not the GM has built or is building a team that can compete for a championship. Look at the Hawks. They make the playoffs every year and have one a few playoff series but they are flawed in there make up and will never compete for a title. They are in no mans land.

KOC is building a team the right way, and if a few things go right for us we could compete for a championship in the next 5 years.
 
so all or nothing... that's a fair perspective also.
but under that criteria, lately the jazz and the hawks seem more similar than different.
If they break through, that'd be different, but that is a big if.
 
GM accountability

Cyrone Torbin said:
GM's don't complete anything. They give the team the players, after that it's up to the players and coaches to complete it. He doesn't develop players, he doesn't make the players practice, he just gets them there.
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That is a good point and certainly true. The broader point that is under consideration is: "is the GM accountable for team results" To me the answer is "yes." Coaches are also accountable for team results, player are also accountable for team results.

If this is not the case, and if any one of the three do not feel responsible and are not held accountable, a team winds up with victim mentality everywhere: Coaches: "I'd win if the GM ever gave me enough talent" Players: "we'd win if only the coach would give players the right minutes" GMs: "they've got the right talent, the coach just has not properly motivated players."

My opinion, every team must have across-the-board accountability in place before they become successful. (After they are successful, everyone will be lining up to take credit)
 
margodydek said:
I consider this to be KOC's final exam.
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For me, that would be the end of the 2016 season. That would only be the sixth year in the league for Favor and Hayward, and the fifth for Kanter and Burks; we should have a good idea how talented they are by then. I think making a judgement after the fourth/third years will be premature.
 
Most experts I read think the Jazz are well run and have a very bright future. One of the brightest even.

We've got youth. We've got salary flexibility. There is a plan in place. We're even taking a risk now and then.

What more do you want from your GM?
 
One Brow said:
For me, that would be the end of the 2016 season. That would only be the sixth year in the league for Favor and Hayward, and the fifth for Kanter and Burks; we should have a good idea how talented they are by then. I think making a judgement after the fourth/third years will be premature.
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I don't think having home court for the 1st round by 2014 for a passing grade is unrealistic. BTW, that's all I'm asking for. I don't expect a championship. Just home court in the 1st round. Honest question - how many times have we had that under KOC's regime?
 
margodydek said:
I don't think having home court for the 1st round by 2014 for a passing grade is unrealistic. BTW, that's all I'm asking for. I don't expect a championship. Just home court in the 1st round. Honest question - how many times have we had that under KOC's regime?
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Look it up if you care so much. It doesn't change the fact that KOC has done a good job and even better when you consider he deals with a market that is low on FA's wishlist.
 
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