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What an embarrassing night for all Jazz fans (4/14/14). Tank crowd can suck a fat one. (LONG)

Man - you totally missed the point of everything I've posted. I've clearly stated a hundred times since the preseason, I'm all for the rebuilding phase and accepted missing the playoffs. I attack the notion that the Jazz had to lose for losing sake. I felt our foundation (five of a potential top 7 or 8 rotation players on a contender) was good enough to win many more games this year than they did (and would still miss the playoffs). Not sure how many other ways I can say it.

I guess you, and many of the others with differing viewpoints couldn't really accept anything I wrote because I answered a question I was asked about playing competitively.

It is a fact that those who never played competitive sports cannot understand the intangible elements that go into building a champion.

You're right. We probably could have won more games. Where would that get us though? This team obviously doesn't have enough to compete for a playoff spot let alone a title. If you aren't in it to win a title, why waste your time? Moral victories aren't getting this team over the hump.
 
You seem to have displayed the reading comprehension level of a toddler, as I conveyed little of what you assert. I've said from the start I was fine with missing the playoffs this year based on our roster. DL working under handcuff of Greg Miller (too cheap to buy out Corbin and hire a real coach while Ty was still on contract), and DA got his coach - their roster even worse than Jazz talent-wise. Of course I have the confidence DL can put together a contender through the draft and free agency. He's going to, hopefully, get to hand pick his next head coach.

Jazz and Celts are completely different situations, and not really comparable. Celts are totally rebuilding their foundation/roster, whereas the Jazz have the foundation in place. The Jazz had the foundation in place heading into this season. That's where my issue is. The rebuilding process was halted for a full season on account of Miller refusing to pony up and remove that lameduck, ****sack coach of ours.

Can you give other examples of Miller being cheap?

Surely he's being cheap on the arena. He hasn't updated the acoustics or video board in the arena for nine months.

How about roster? No bad contracts on the roster. No eating of that money in seven days or so.

How about draft? They only bought one draft pick last year.

Damn, Miller is cheap.

You're wasting your breath. It's not sufficient for some to disagree with your post and, if they care enough to, explain why, they feel this compelling need to mock it, mock you and just be arseholes. That's who they are. Or at least, that's who their internet personas are. The internet is full of them. See any discussion thread on any news website.

Uglibaby is a dick. More, he takes pride in it. I'll bet he takes my post as a compliment (luv ya buddy). You're pissing in the wind my friend.

When you start your thread with "The following may sound douchey, but since it's true, you'll have to deal with it" and have inaccuracies and poor reasoning after said line, you're fully open to ridicule.
 
Jazz do need to learn how to win games. And yes, it's more important than a draft pick. But if you acquire a superstar candidate, you have a product in your hand for the association to support with advertising etc. So you have a bigger chance of growing your franchise into a true contender for the ages.

You see, the problem with the Jazz is, they might have picked the wrong guy to control this process. Corbin's Jazz team was one of the most high potential young roster in the league but this season showed that he is lacking the ability to lead them to a point. A point like the Spurs team. Or a point like OKC.
 
Started on a state title team and played DII for four years. I was hoping some members of Jazzfanz could talk basketball on a basketball message board. If you disagree that developing a winning culture is vital to building a title contender that is fair, but hopefully you can take some time to provide some reasoning as I have.

So you want to have a dialogue yet your title to the thread - Tank crowd can suck a fat one suggest otherwise. The Jazz have a winning culture already, you make it sound like we are the Bobcats or the old Clippers. The Jazz organization has a plan and many fans who whine about one or two losing seasons need to take a chill pill. When the Jazz moved to SLC they sucked and almost didn't survive because a lack of fan support due to losing. Then when they started winning Jazz fans became spoiled. Now if the Jazz have a decade of losing then your argument would be stronger

However, The sky isn't falling and the Jazz organization isn't crumbling before your eyes. There are a lot of good teams especially in the West so progress may be slower than people want. Throw in a VERY VERY young team with little experience playing in the NBA and together and you are going to see games like you did against the Lakers. I didn't see the team throw in the towel and not try. I really think your complaint demonstrations how many Jazz fans feel entitled to have a winning team and lacks a perspective necessary to build a championship team.

The problem with losing franchises is they panic and start giving away draft picks, firing coaches/GMs and overspending in FA because the fans demand a winner immediately and they end up like the Knicks or Cleveland or Bobcats etc. Right now the Jazz are not even close to being those types of franchises, so be patient and stop thinking "tank" fans or the Jazz have anything to be ashamed about because we don't. We live in the reality of the NBA which is there are times when you have to be bad in order to be good (OKC, Portland etc.)
 
Jazz do need to learn how to win games. And yes, it's more important than a draft pick. But if you acquire a superstar candidate, you have a product in your hand for the association to support with advertising etc. So you have a bigger chance of growing your franchise into a true contender for the ages.

You see, the problem with the Jazz is, they might have picked the wrong guy to control this process. Corbin's Jazz team was one of the most high potential young roster in the league but this season showed that he is lacking the ability to lead them to a point. A point like the Spurs team. Or a point like OKC.

I think you are overrating our roster. Very few young talented teams win consistently in the NBA. The Jazz have to learn to play as a team in the NBA. Have Jazz fans forgotten that Stockton and Malone didn't get to the finals until the end of their careers. There are a lot of good team especially in the West so talent is everywhere. Yes a great coach might have squeezed a few more victories out of this team but both the Spurs and OKC had to learn to win games especially OKC.
 
The following may sound douchey, but since it's true, you'll have to deal with it: if you have never played competitive sports, particularly basketball, you are most likely in the pro-tank crowd. Here is why that's such a foolish perspective on this season.

Knowing how to win close, high-level games is a learned skill. Outcomes of games aren't coincidental in most cases. In basketball, there are hundreds of elements to the game and how it's played to be in position to win a game. Among those elements are something as simple as execution of basic fundamentals to as complex as a read-and-react action based on how secondary defender is guarding. The teams that do a combo of all those things better and more consistently, and at the right times, win.

The primary outrage of the Jazz consumers should lie squarely on Greg Miller who's made the choice to penny-pinch with a coach while the roster restructured from the D-Will/Booz era. Corbin may be a great guy, and perhaps knows more about basketball than any of us could ever dream of. But guess what? He can't ****ing teach it. Obviously, our roster this season featured plenty of young guys with bright futures. They had the same breakdowns defensively tonight against the Lakers (specifically guarding the pick-and-roll) that they did the first game of the preseason - and basically every game in between.

Favors and Kanter react to double teams as poorly as they have since they've come to the Jazz under Corbin's tutelage.

Burke showed his moxy as a 'killer' during the Big Dance, and several times this season. Burks was THE breakout player of the season for us, and the most positive storyline for us. He was a complete monster in the 2nd half of the season, and looks to be a star in the making. I thought I had seen enough to gather what a 'best-case scenario' would be for him last season, but he surpassed that for sure this year. His relentlessness attacking the cup and ability to get buckets in the lane, and trips to the FT line, is rare and will be an awesome piece for us.

Hayward has a really, really nice all-around game. He's had plenty of time to display a killer, alpha-dog mentality but hasn't even come close, and if he stays he'll be complementary as opposed to the star as many of us had once envisioned.

Those five NEEDED to learn to what it takes to win games in the league this year.

The window of opportunity is short, and we have talent to be a real contender down the road. If we had a capable coach the last few years grooming these pups, there's no way we finish as crappy as we do this year.

The most concerning part for me is that there's no way any of the players were 'tanking', and I'm 99.9% sure the coaching staff wasn't prepping for games or making subs with the conscious hope that it leads to a loss. To do that as a player would be admitting they aren't good enough to be real, so lets suck to try and get a good lotto pick and someone who may be good.

There's no guarantee (sans a guy every few years) that a top 3 pick rookie will be a franchise-changing, immediate impact player. To be honest, none of the current guys in the draft will be the reason a team becomes a bona fide playoff team in the next two years. So to go through a season where our great nucleus of five (TB, AB, GH, DF, EK) can't gain the invaluable experience of winning close games, and/or blowing teams out - and knowing how/why they did so - for the chance to take a kid who may or may not pan out down the line is awful. To want that is a joke, and displays cluelessness.

Aaron Gordon is the most NBA ready of all these guys because he'll be able to contribute at a relatively high level defensively and I haven't seen him projected to go top 3 anywhere. I'd take him in a heartbeat.

It is imperative the Jazz find a coach who not only is capable with the dry-erase board, but understands teaching the game and developing talent and cohesion on the court.

We've got 5 MFs who are really good in the talent dept for their respective positions, but need to be coached up at an NBA level in the worst way.

Jazz fans should've been rallying to get these 5 to get some confidence playing for and with each other by getting dubbs this year. There were plenty available.

No one who has a casual-fan's basketball mind can say the Lakers roster is more talented, or better, than the Jazz tonight. What was the difference then?

You should have warned us that your post was going to be long. I hot trapped as soon as I clicked on the discussion.

Sent from the JazzFanz app
 
I think you are overrating our roster. Very few young talented teams win consistently in the NBA. The Jazz have to learn to play as a team in the NBA. Have Jazz fans forgotten that Stockton and Malone didn't get to the finals until the end of their careers. There are a lot of good team especially in the West so talent is everywhere. Yes a great coach might have squeezed a few more victories out of this team but both the Spurs and OKC had to learn to win games especially OKC.

I think another coach could work wonders on this roster. With the right system and the right bench leader, there is even a fourth seed in this roster.
 
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Teams can build through the draft, FA and trades. Who's to say DL won't trade our two picks this year for a proven vet? I certainly wouldn't be opposed if the deal was right.

The entire crux of everything I've posted in this thread is that rebuilding/restructuring was inevitable. However, there's a line between letting a predominantly young, talented team that won't make the playoffs take their lumps through the course of a season and a full-fledged dumpster fire.

One thing you may have learned at a DII school is some English and a nice little vocab. One thing you most certainly didn't learn is a ****ing thing about basketball or the logic behind building a team. Surely your math skills suffered greatly as you worked tirelessly at perfecting your sentence structure. Too bad for you basketball is a game that revolves completely around numbers and mathematics which is why as pretty as your sentences look, they lack any semblance of logic. None.
 
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The idea that somehow losing ten more games this year ruins everyone on the roster forever is comical. If we get Wiggins or Parker and they are awesome you'll be back here next year trying to pretend like you didn't create a thread that said Gary Harris was just as good.
 
Check the Jazz roster in 2003-04, and their win-loss total.

Of course you need a 'superstar' and talent, but the Jazz have a few studs in the making and a few really freaking good role players in the making. My point was we were gonna be lotto most likely, and in this draft, I don't see much of a difference between 2-14. Jabari has a chance to be really special... But he could also turn into Billy Owens. Burke getting first-hand experience this year winning at least 10-15 more games is more beneficial to the Jazz in the big picture than the difference between Julius Randle and whoever gets picked 10-14.

You are making a lot of assumptions with your argument. You are assuming that the current players and coaches were trying to lose. You have no proof they were. Just because fans can see the benefits and the reality of having a losing team this year, a year that seems to have a great draft, doesn't mean that the players see it that way. Players will always play hard because of one factor, if they don't then eventually they will be out of the league. In the end the Jazz have a lot of potential on their roster and nothing more. There are very few 19 year old kids who just step into the NBA and dominate and lead their teams to the playoffs, we don't have any of those type of players. Kobe struggled when he came into the league, the potential was there but he had to develop into the superstar he was. He actually lucked out because the Laker team he was on wasn't that bad before he got there and then Shaq came on board.

Your argument that winning 10 more games some how benefits this team more than getting a top 4 pick does without anything to support that claim. We still missed the playoffs so the team doesn't get the experience of being in the playoffs. Maybe if the team won 10-15 more games and missed the playoff, the young guys get a little cocky and don't work as hard or losing so much inspires them to work harder and get better. Yes I know this is being a little ridiculous but I just don't see any benefit of winning 10 more games this year.

You are trying to make it sound like historically there is no difference of talent between the lottery picks that 2-14 are basically the same. That is a huge assumption and it is wrong. It is true that there are no guarantees that our pick will be the special player we hope he is but there is a greater chance that he is than drafting at 14 or 23rd. Simply discounting the possibility that getting a top 4 pick isn't the answer to our problems is just denying the reality of the NBA, most great players are drafted at the top of the draft.

The last assumption is that we already have the talent to win on the roster. This is subjective at best, until this season we had a lot of hope players would be who we think they are but in reality no one still really knows about Trey, Kanter, or Burks since it was their first year really playing. Favors and Hayward are good players but haven't proven they are all-stars or 1 or 2 options yet. We might lose Hayward to free agency. See there are a lot of IFs even with our current roster. Perhaps our record is exactly where our talent level is at this point. Your concern about creating a losing culture is overblown, the Jazz since arriving from N.O., have had few losing seasons and even survived losing S&M with little down time. The reality is the Jazz are right were they are because they are rebuilding and this process takes time, patience and acquiring more talent. Would you rather be the NY Knicks who follow your plan or the Jazz? Who has a better future right now?
 
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Its all been said already. I have nothing to add.

HH you just got served
 
The idea that somehow losing ten more games this year ruins everyone on the roster forever is comical. If we get Wiggins or Parker and they are awesome you'll be back here next year trying to pretend like you didn't create a thread that said Gary Harris was just as good.

What's hilarious is that Gary Harris is the best 2-guard in this draft. Jabari can't guard anyone and Wiggins still has plenty of room to develop in terms of playing a complete game. I'd take Parker or Wiggins over Harris (obviously) but to use Harris as an example of a poor player (comparatively speaking) is asinine.

The last time I started a thread that most Jazzfanz members disagreed with, and did so by taking personal shots at me/mocking me, it was 3 years ago (in 2011) when I started a thread about how Ty Corbin needed to be fired ASAP and wasn't an NBA coach after seeing some of the Jazz sets, rotations, etc. Looks like time has proved I hit the nail on the ****ing head then.

This particular thread isn't nearly as subjective as the Corbin one either. The one's who love the internet so much they can only post "message board one-liners" they learned on the web as responses in a basketball-talk thread have revealed themselves as clueless fans. It's all good. My mother is like that too. She has no clue what she's cheering for at the games other than knowing it's a good thing when someone in a Jazz jersey scores.

It doesn't make us any better or worse Jazz fans. We all support the beloved. But facts are that many just don't know what they're talking about, and a few became obvious in this thread. You can mock my playing experience all you want, but the relationships I built, life lessons I learned and the knowledge I've gained from playing, from my coaches and now coaching myself means a lot to me.

Any poster who claims to have played competitive sports in this thread but can't grasp the notion that a championship team doesn't win based solely on the names on the roster has shown what a ****ty teammate they must've been in their playing days.
 
The following may sound douchey, but since it's true, you'll have to deal with it: if you have never played competitive sports, particularly basketball, you are most likely in the pro-tank crowd. Here is why that's such a foolish perspective on this season.

Knowing how to win close, high-level games is a learned skill. Outcomes of games aren't coincidental in most cases. In basketball, there are hundreds of elements to the game and how it's played to be in position to win a game. Among those elements are something as simple as execution of basic fundamentals to as complex as a read-and-react action based on how secondary defender is guarding. The teams that do a combo of all those things better and more consistently, and at the right times, win.

The primary outrage of the Jazz consumers should lie squarely on Greg Miller who's made the choice to penny-pinch with a coach while the roster restructured from the D-Will/Booz era. Corbin may be a great guy, and perhaps knows more about basketball than any of us could ever dream of. But guess what? He can't ****ing teach it. Obviously, our roster this season featured plenty of young guys with bright futures. They had the same breakdowns defensively tonight against the Lakers (specifically guarding the pick-and-roll) that they did the first game of the preseason - and basically every game in between.

Favors and Kanter react to double teams as poorly as they have since they've come to the Jazz under Corbin's tutelage.

Burke showed his moxy as a 'killer' during the Big Dance, and several times this season. Burks was THE breakout player of the season for us, and the most positive storyline for us. He was a complete monster in the 2nd half of the season, and looks to be a star in the making. I thought I had seen enough to gather what a 'best-case scenario' would be for him last season, but he surpassed that for sure this year. His relentlessness attacking the cup and ability to get buckets in the lane, and trips to the FT line, is rare and will be an awesome piece for us.

Hayward has a really, really nice all-around game. He's had plenty of time to display a killer, alpha-dog mentality but hasn't even come close, and if he stays he'll be complementary as opposed to the star as many of us had once envisioned.

Those five NEEDED to learn to what it takes to win games in the league this year.

The window of opportunity is short, and we have talent to be a real contender down the road. If we had a capable coach the last few years grooming these pups, there's no way we finish as crappy as we do this year.

The most concerning part for me is that there's no way any of the players were 'tanking', and I'm 99.9% sure the coaching staff wasn't prepping for games or making subs with the conscious hope that it leads to a loss. To do that as a player would be admitting they aren't good enough to be real, so lets suck to try and get a good lotto pick and someone who may be good.

There's no guarantee (sans a guy every few years) that a top 3 pick rookie will be a franchise-changing, immediate impact player. To be honest, none of the current guys in the draft will be the reason a team becomes a bona fide playoff team in the next two years. So to go through a season where our great nucleus of five (TB, AB, GH, DF, EK) can't gain the invaluable experience of winning close games, and/or blowing teams out - and knowing how/why they did so - for the chance to take a kid who may or may not pan out down the line is awful. To want that is a joke, and displays cluelessness.

Aaron Gordon is the most NBA ready of all these guys because he'll be able to contribute at a relatively high level defensively and I haven't seen him projected to go top 3 anywhere. I'd take him in a heartbeat.

It is imperative the Jazz find a coach who not only is capable with the dry-erase board, but understands teaching the game and developing talent and cohesion on the court.

We've got 5 MFs who are really good in the talent dept for their respective positions, but need to be coached up at an NBA level in the worst way.

Jazz fans should've been rallying to get these 5 to get some confidence playing for and with each other by getting dubbs this year. There were plenty available.

No one who has a casual-fan's basketball mind can say the Lakers roster is more talented, or better, than the Jazz tonight. What was the difference then?

In the words if The great Cowherd, Mediocrity in the NBA is the Mauve desert
 
You are making a lot of assumptions with your argument. You are assuming that the current players and coaches were trying to lose. You have no proof they were.

I really appreciate the time you took to write a well-thought out response. In this thread (not original post), I clearly stated, I'm 99.9% sure they were NOT trying to lose. My issue was ownership deciding to keep Corbin in place to coach/lead/teach/etc. this group led by TB, AB, GH, DF and EK. He showed for three years how inept he was in basically all facets, and the result this season was (regardless of who's on our team in 5 years, at least 2-3 of these guys figure to be prominent pieces) our core gaining no experience in becoming winners TOGETHER.
 
So basically highland homie thinks ty corbin sucks.
We all agree. Move along
 
Wha wha what?

I needed to edit that "at least" to "even". I know it sounds extreme but it actually is not. You can pull that out if you have the tools for it. I always was a strong believer of the validity of the Spurs case on the Jazz experiment. It is possible. Just find the right driver for the truck.
 
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